Delay Repay - two advances as a return?

[orpine]

Hypothetical -
I'm Travelling from A to B on an Advance ticket. A few days later I return (B to A) on another Advance ticket.

Assuming at some point along one of these journeys there's a snag and I am delayed for 2.5hrs due to a railway fault.

When I file for delay repay will my two advances be treated as a "return" ticket (noting of course that >=2hrs warrants 100% of a return refunded), or will I only get a refund for the single advance that was affected?

I've never thought about this before, I've always just claimed for the one affected advance.

What's the policy?

 

[transmanche]

When I file for delay repay will my two advances be treated as a "return" ticket (noting of course that >=2hrs warrants 100% of a return refunded), or will I only get a refund for the single advance that was affected?

Just for the single advance that was affected. East Coast's Delay Repay page says:

Please note that when you purchase two separate Advance Single tickets to make a round trip, these do not constitute a return ticket. The maximum claim will be 100% of the value of the ticket used for that particular journey.

 

[bb21]

No, they are two separate tickets, and together do not make one journey.

If you are using two Advance tickets for one journey then it is quite different.

 

[island]

Advance tickets are single tickets. You do not get any further refund beyond the value of the single ticket.

 

[Mojo]

I once got East Coast to offer me enhanced delay compensation on an extremely long delay early last year. The basis of my comments was that their website states 'Outward' and 'Return,' and simply 'Journey 1' on the email confirmation, implying that I have a return.

Of course I was possibly being slightly cheeky in asking for an enhanced level of compensation to I would otherwise be entitled, but was aggrieved at the very long delay which got me back at about 3am. I'd say depending on the circumstances it doesn't hurt to ask!

 

[orpine]

Oh well, another one to the TOC's benefit I guess.

@Mojo - interesting take. I'll have to bear that in mind!

 

[DeeGee]

If you are using two Advance tickets for one journey then it is quite different.

Not according to the delay repay refund I got from Eastcoast :cry:

 

[bb21]

Not according to the delay repay refund I got from Eastcoast :cry:

It is an argument that can be made, but no, there is no guarantee that it will be paid out on that basis due to the way this scheme has been implemented (poorly).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . A few days later I return (B to A) on another Advance ticket.

. . . will my two advances be treated as a "return" ticket . . . . ?

A few days later?
Of course not!

I and others on here have noted that the term 'journey' is not defined in statute or Conditions, but a retuen 'a few days later' is very clearly NOT part of the same journey. It MAY be part of the same contract, part of the passenger's same purpose in travelling, part of the same greater tour of the land; but it is not, ever, going to be considered as the one journey.

While I consider this question, I imagine our hypothetical traveller with an interest in viewing the clifftop views near the England-Scotland border (just north of Berwick) from a journey which takes her across the border 6 times each way every day for a year. As there are no stations in Borders, our traveller has to travel a thousand miles every day for a year, or a journey of 400,000 miles.
Can you find a definition in the NRCoC which clearly confirms that this is not 'a journey'?
If you cannot, do you think that that omission in the Conditions leads the passenger to believe that they can take their 'journey' of 12 trips a day for a year, and then claim delay-repay for all of their subsequent travel which was delayed?

Oh well, another one to the TOC's benefit I guess.

You really believe that this interpretation is anti-customer?

A journey, in the absence of a technically precise definition, should be assumed to be what a reasonable person might consider to be 'a journey', and that doesn't include a visit with a return ' few days later' any more than it includers our hypothetical enthusiast travelling the same route 12 times a day for a year.

 

[Clip]

Oh well, another one to the TOC's benefit I guess.

I suggest that if you would like the full benefits of a return journey refund being given on only one leg of your journey that you actually purchase a return ticket and not 2 singles.


I would say the situation you found yourself in has actually favoured you - given that the general consensous is that 2 advances were cheaper than a return ticket - or else why would you buy 2 singles - and you have indeed got a refund on the leg that was delayed.


So you come out of it quite nicely

 

[IanD]

A few days later?
Of course not!

You could use the same argument for a return ticket. Why should you get a refund for an undelayed outward trip you made up to a month before just because you were delayed on your way back? Of course, I'm happy that you can but it isn't really logical.

 

[DeeGee]

Let's say, just for a bit of fun, that I book a pair of advance singles to make a return journey, for the same day, for instance, to watch a football match.

I get on my booked train, which is delayed by circumstances within the rail industry's control, to the extent that I actually miss my train home.

a) would I get delay repay for one or both legs?
b) would I be able to get home on my originally booked ticket?

 

[MikeWh]

Let's say, just for a bit of fun, that I book a pair of advance singles to make a return journey, for the same day, for instance, to watch a football match.

I get on my booked train, which is delayed by circumstances within the rail industry's control, to the extent that I actually miss my train home.

a) would I get delay repay for one or both legs?
b) would I be able to get home on my originally booked ticket?

a) In those circumstances I would hope so, but I can't be sure.
b) Absolutely. Unless the return was due to leave less than the minimum connection time after your booked arrival then the railway has clearly prevented you from catching the correct train and they will allow you to travel later.

 

[ffm]

Oh well, another one to the TOC's benefit I suppose)

I think that is unfair, you were delayed on only the one journey on the one ticket. Why should you get the unaffected journey refunded? If your had bought one ticket, a return, then fair enough. You didn't and chose to get cheaper tickets with conditions, such as fixed trains.

 

[bb21]

This I believe is down to discretion.

I had a similar problem last year where I booked a return journey with separate Advances to Berwick in the evening with around an hour there to meet up with a friend to discuss a few things. My booked train from York was late, and picked up more delays en route, to the extent that by the time we reached Durham, I realised that I was unable to actually do a return journey to Berwick and back that day. East Coast were happy to given a full refund on all my tickets, which comprised York - Newcastle, Newcastle - Berwick, Berwick - Durham, Durham - York and York - Leeds, once I wrote to them and explained the situation.

 

[ffm]

Ah somewhat different as the two advances were for one day, with the trip being the time between trains at the journey's end. In that case I would argue that a full refund is fair, but a couple if days apart is not the TOC getting one over on the customer?

 

[bb21]

Ah somewhat different as the two advances were for one day, with the trip being the time between trains at the journey's end. In that case I would argue that a full refund is fair, but a couple if days apart is not the TOC getting one over on the customer?

Yes, the reply is more aimed at the footie example given in Post 12.

 

[CockneySparrow]

I got delay repay from GA, I buy a season ticket between Ely and Cambridge, I work in Shelford but somedays I bike from Cambridge to work, if it rains I buy a return from Cambridge to Shelford

One day the 17:14 Shelford to Ely was cancelled and I presented both the return ticket and season stating its the same train and GA just paid out no questions asked

 

[Deerfold]

I got delay repay from GA, I buy a season ticket between Ely and Cambridge, I work in Shelford but somedays I bike from Cambridge to work, if it rains I buy a return from Cambridge to Shelford

One day the 17:14 Shelford to Ely was cancelled and I presented both the return ticket and season stating its the same train and GA just paid out no questions asked

And so I'd hope. That's a relatively simple one.

 

[mildertduck]

I once was scheduled to a meeting in London, and had two advances (there and back). My outbound journey was sufficiently late (about 4 hours, iirc) to make me just miss my booked "return" train (and, for that matter, the meeting!). The next train was less than half an hour later, and as such I only arrived back home about 20 minutes later than scheduled... I was given 100% of both journeys as delay repay - although I suspect they sympathized with my trip to London for no reason!

 

[orpine]

A few days later?
Of course not!

Why not? A standard return lets me return up to 31 days later!

but it is not, ever, going to be considered as the one journey.

Except on every single online ticketing system. I use the National rail journey planner where I enter the details for my outward and return.

Don't get me wrong, I agree there's no formal definition of journey for the legal-monkeys, however in common parlance and in the TOC's and ATOCs own language, the two components form a single journey.

I would say the situation you found yourself in has actually favoured you - given that the general consensous is that 2 advances were cheaper than a return ticket

Fair point, but I'd counter by highlight the crippling limitations imposed on me by an Advance ticket - that's why they're considerably cheaper.

 

[Flamingo]

Fair point, but I'd counter by highlight the crippling limitations imposed on me by an Advance ticket - that's why they're considerably cheaper.

Well, one of the limitations is that they count as two single journeys.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Why not? A standard return lets me return up to 31 days later!

It does indeed.
But that flexibility doesn't turn those two trips, a month apart, into 'the one journey' any more than breaking anything else into two parts which are enacted a month apart turns them into the one act: a meal, a holiday, a mood, a payment, a recollection, a search, a litter-pick, a haircut, a theatre performance, or cutting the grass.

I repeat: Of course not!

 

[IanD]

It does indeed.
But that flexibility doesn't turn those two trips, a month apart, into 'the one journey' any more than breaking anything else into two parts which are enacted a month apart turns them into the one act: a meal, a holiday, a mood, a payment, a recollection, a search, a litter-pick, a haircut, a theatre performance, or cutting the grass.

I repeat: Of course not!

Then why give compensation of 100% of a return ticket when only the journey covered by 1 half of it has been affected?

 

[bb21]

I can only see one outcome if the industry takes what is said in this thread onboard - the abolition of the compensation arrangement where you are compensated the full value of a return ticket for a delay experienced on only the outward portion or the return portion. Not sure who will end up winners.

Be careful what you wish for is all I can say.

 

[orpine]

Interesting take bb21, but when only 12% of eligible people are claiming their compensation, the TOC's can certainly afford to count two Advances as a return journey. I'd prefer TOC's address both issues, but for now either would be fine, including two Advances being a "return" journey (which they are, at least how I'm using them).

 

[bb21]

I have no doubt that they can afford it, but it is always worth taking a step back and considering whether it is something worth persuing and whether there could be unintended consequences.

Of course the odd few people here and there arguing the toss over this matter is not gonna make much difference, but if a large number of passengers start disputing such a matter with the industry, it may well change their attitude.

Well, the more compensation money they get to keep, the better it looks to shareholders.

 

[Clip]

I have no doubt that they can afford it, but it is always worth taking a step back and considering whether it is something worth persuing and whether there could be unintended consequences.

Of course the odd few people here and there arguing the toss over this matter is not gonna make much difference, but if a large number of passengers start disputing such a matter with the industry, it may well change their attitude.

Well, the more compensation money they get to keep, the better it looks to shareholders.

Or it could lead to the abolition of Advances altogether and leave the fare paying passenger paying the higher RETURN fare to which they would make even more money from the passenger.

Just because it can sell you two SINGLES(which is done so for the convenience of the fare paying passenger) does not mean you can treat it in the same respect as a RETURN fare.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting take bb21, but when only 12% of eligible people are claiming their compensation, the TOC's can certainly afford to count two Advances as a return journey. I'd prefer TOC's address both issues, but for now either would be fine, including two Advances being a "return" journey (which they are, at least how I'm using them).

But in another thread, you want to increase that figure. The money has to come from somewhere. So... where?

Or it could lead to the abolition of Advances altogether and leave the fare paying passenger paying the higher RETURN fare to which they would make even more money from the passenger.

No chance. The TOCs love using yield management techniques, they hate sharing revenue with rival operators, and they also like to be able to predict demand. So Advance tickets are very much here to stay.

Just because it can sell you two SINGLES(which is done so for the convenience of the fare paying passenger) does not mean you can treat it in the same respect as a RETURN fare.

It's not the same as a "return fare", but the WebTIS websites do describe and show a "journey" as potentially consisting of 2 x singles.

 

[Clip]

No chance. The TOCs love using yield management techniques, they hate sharing revenue with rival operators, and they also like to be able to predict demand. So Advance tickets are very much here to stay.

It's not the same as a "return fare", but the WebTIS websites do describe and show a "journey" as potentially consisting of 2 x singles.

You're right in your fist sentence but whilst I agree they dont like sharing the money out on routes they have to do so they could really chat about doing away with it to protect what revenue they do have. And also they may not actually get to keep as much by selling the advance as they would from splitting the cost of a return so please dont ever think they wont change their mind.


As for your second post I never said it was the same as a return fare, as I stated in my first post on this thread, I said they show it for a convenience to the passenger.