Delay repay through London?

[cholsey-choose]

Hi all! Last month had a train journey from Cambridge to King's Cross, then cycled (on my own bike) to Paddington, then GWR to Slough. Two separate train tickets (advance for the first, contactless for the second).

My initial train to KGX was delayed by just over 30min. But because it's a short bike ride and the journey planners are pessimistic across London, my arrival in Slough wasn't delayed by much compared to what national rail would predict.

I'm inclined to think that this was two separate rail journeys with a bike journey in the middle, so I can honestly claim delay repay for Cambridge to King's Cross.

What do you think?

 

[Watershed]

I would agree that a claim is legitimate in this case. There is no clear definition of "journey" in the NRCoT - you are just told that you may use multiple tickets to make one journey. I would say that's a pretty strong indication that it's your right to choose whether to count multiple tickets as constituting one journey or not.

In any event, NRCoT 14.2 requires that the tickets join up:

Unless Condition 14.1 applies, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

In this case they didn't, as you had an unticketed gap between Kings Cross and Paddington.

There is an argument that Oyster/contactless on the Tube would count had you taken that, but since that is a standalone contract under TfL's Conditions of Carriage rather than the NRCoT, I doubt it qualifies as a "Ticket" as defined in the NRCoT.

In practical terms it would be tricky for GTR to even know about your other ticket from Paddington, and you would be quite entitled to have sold that ticket to a friend for example. So just because they were bought at the same time (presumably) doesn't mean that you necessarily used them to make one journey.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Io just because they were bought at the same time (presumably) doesn't mean that you necessarily used them to make one journey.

To make it clear that they are separate journeys, the Slough ticket was contactess, so not "bought" at the same time as the Cambridge to London ticket.

 

[cholsey-choose]

OK thanks both! One thing I dislike about the delay repay process is that there's no room for extra information that may or may not be relevant to a claim.

 

[Kite159]

In this case wouldn't the claim just be Cambridge to London Kings Cross ignoring the element from Paddington to Slough which would just confuse matters due to the gap.

 

[cholsey-choose]

In this case wouldn't the claim just be Cambridge to London Kings Cross ignoring the element from Paddington to Slough which would just confuse matters due to the gap.

Yes that's right. But if all the way from Cam to Slough were seen as one journey, this could be seen as fraudulent or at least dishonest because delay repay is meant to apply to the entire journey.

 

[Kite159]

At the end of the day it is up to you, there will be no link between the ticket you used from Cambridge to London & the contactless payment between Paddington & Slough.

Besides had the train from Cambridge been on time, you would likely have ended up getting to Slough earlier than what Network Rail would say due to the excessively long cross-London connection times.

 

[MotCO]

I think this example raises two interesting issues.

1. When the rules were drawn up, no one presumably thought that a journey could be undertaken by contactless, not requiring the pre-purchase of a ticket. If the OP had travelled by tube across London, then it should surely count as one journey, and the rules need to be updated.

2. Does a cross-London trip have to be undertaken by train? Some neighbouring stations allow walking between them. And can you not also choose to go by bus? Just taking this one step further, since Santander bikes are also run by TfL, would that be an approved method of travel to count as one continuous journey? (Ignoring the issue that the journey by GWR was made by contactless, i.e. not buying a ticket at the same time)

 

[CyrusWuff]

Trying to claim it as a through journey may fall foul of the minimum connection time as well. For Kings Cross to Paddington, that's 45 minutes for most of the day. So if the OP's intended train from Paddington was less than 45 minutes after the scheduled arrival into Kings Cross, it wouldn't be a valid connection.

 

[Haywain]

. Does a cross-London trip have to be undertaken by train? Some neighbouring stations allow walking between them.

No. I have made claims when I have walked between Euston and St Pancras, and with separate tickets for the two parts of the journey. Both EMR and Avanti have accepted and paid out on such claims.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Trying to claim it as a through journey may fall foul of the minimum connection time as well. For Kings Cross to Paddington, that's 45 minutes for most of the day. So if the OP's intended train from Paddington was less than 45 minutes after the scheduled arrival into Kings Cross, it wouldn't be a valid connection.

Yeah this was my worry about pessimistic journey times in my OP. Though to be fair cycling was not much faster! Taking into account unlocking and locking etc, it probably took me 30 minutes.

 

[ivorytoast28]

I know it's good to be honest about things but this seems to be a case of way too much overthinking. You only bought one train ticket in advance, that train was then delayed by 30 minutes so you claim that

If I was taking a train to my local station with the intention of catching a bus 40 mins later but my train is then 30 mins late I wouldn't not claim because I still got the same bus. In London I'd say this is similar enough, the contactless was a local commute you made after, you'd have got home quicker if the train wasn't delayed

 

[cholsey-choose]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have something even more solid now - I didn't have a complete ticket for the jourey from Cambridge to Slough. This is because (to my surprise) contactless from Paddington to Slough is a bit cheaper than contactless from King's Cross to Slough. I guess it's like the 'london terminals' versus 'zone 1' paper ticket distinction. Since I tapped in at Paddington I didn't have a rail fare for the journey across town.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have something even more solid now - I didn't have a complete ticket for the jourey from Cambridge to Slough. This is because (to my surprise) contactless from Paddington to Slough is a bit cheaper than contactless from King's Cross to Slough. I guess it's like the 'london terminals' versus 'zone 1' paper ticket distinction. Since I tapped in at Paddington I didn't have a rail fare for the journey across town.

Fares to stations beyond Zones 1-6 (where only contactless is accepted) were generally set as half of the equivalent paper return fare. Hence the difference between the fare from Paddington and from Kings Cross.