Delay repay potential fraud

[PavlosA]

Hi all

I’m approving an order from a colleague through to our corporate provider for the renewal of their annual season ticket. The colleague has claimed a large amount in rail vouchers (over a third of the annual ticket cost). I’m wondering to start with if there’s a way to see what dates the vouchers relate to. The ref has a date of sorts within it, but I can’t see how that could relate to the claim date since I have four claims with the same date in some cases. Now if that does relate to the claim date, this would cause me concern. Similarly if the claims are for non-commuter times I would be concerned. Either way, I’m wondering how we can check if these claims are all legitimate without initially flagging it with the corporate provider. I understand TOCs have their own checks, but I guess it's harder for them to prove a claim is fraudulent.

Any advice would be great, thanks.

 

[furlong]

Any advice would be great, thanks.

You might find the corporate provider has seen this before for this particular journey (a route hit by lots of delays) and finds nothing unusual - leave it to them. Some vouchers may be for journeys unrelated to the season ticket.

Or just share your concerns with the employee - if it's all above board, why wouldn't they co-operate and confirm details of some specific journeys? (You select the vouchers to ask about so they can't deliberately avoid ones they'd prefer not to reveal.) Delays for recent journeys you can check yourself online, or if you're still concerned you could contact the issuer of the vouchers once you have this extra information. ("I'm told voucher X was issued for journey A and voucher Y was issued for journey B etc. Does this match your records or ought we to investigate further?")

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all

I’m approving an order from a colleague through to our corporate provider for the renewal of their annual season ticket. The colleague has claimed a large amount in rail vouchers (over a third of the annual ticket cost). I’m wondering to start with if there’s a way to see what dates the vouchers relate to. The ref has a date of sorts within it, but I can’t see how that could relate to the claim date since I have four claims with the same date in some cases. Now if that does relate to the claim date, this would cause me concern. Similarly if the claims are for non-commuter times I would be concerned. Either way, I’m wondering how we can check if these claims are all legitimate without initially flagging it with the corporate provider. I understand TOCs have their own checks, but I guess it's harder for them to prove a claim is fraudulent.

Any advice would be great, thanks.

Some things to consider:

1. A third of the cost? How much are we talking about? £100? £1000? £3000? I claimed over £1000 in Delay Repay last year, legitimately, because I often travel on flexible First Class tickets - but not for work.

2. You've no idea the vouchers were claimed using the season ticket - it could have been personal journeys (see above).

3. You cannot tell what journeys/dates/times are claimed for using the claim number on the voucher - this relates to the date the case was input on their CRM system, and not the journey date or even necessarily the date the claim was received.

4. The only entity who can confirm the dates and times claimed for would be the issuing TOC and not your corporate provider. The TOC are unlikely to be cooperative and they themselves hold the claim data and would be better placed than you to work out if there's been fraud.

5. You can't prove a fraudulent Delay Repay claim anyway except in very particular circumstances (eg: using a Photoshopped ticket).


tl;dr: Not your concern and little chance of finding an answer, so just let it go.

 

[greatkingrat]

Do they commute on Southern by any chance? It is by no means impossible to accrue a large amount of vouchers in a year. I wouldn't read anything into the dates, they may just be when the vouchers were issued, not when the original journey happened.

To be honest, I'm not sure why you think you are better placed to decide on the validity or otherwise of these claims than the TOC who issued the vouchers in the first place?

 

[PavlosA]

You might find the corporate provider has seen this before for this particular journey (a route hit by lots of delays) and finds nothing unusual - leave it to them. Some vouchers may be for journeys unrelated to the season ticket.

Or just share your concerns with the employee - if it's all above board, why wouldn't they co-operate and confirm details of some specific journeys? (You select the vouchers to ask about so they can't deliberately avoid ones they'd prefer not to reveal.) Delays for recent journeys you can check yourself online, or if you're still concerned you could contact the issuer of the vouchers once you have this extra information. ("I'm told voucher X was issued for journey A and voucher Y was issued for journey B etc. Does this match your records or ought we to investigate further?")

Thank you for the advice. If I ask the employee about specific vouchers, will they be able to tell which journey they relate to? I guess they'll just have to look for the issuing paperwork.

 

[PavlosA]

Thanks all

No, not Southern. We're talking over £1,500 of vouchers.

You're both right that it's certainly not my call. I'm not better placed to decide. This is more of an honesty/conduct situation, connected to the profession.

I'm really just wanting to do a bit of digging around the edges to see if it's something we should discuss with the TOC/provider.

Thanks again

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks all

No, not Southern. We're talking over £1,500 of vouchers.

You're both right that it's certainly not my call. I'm not better placed to decide. This is more of an honesty/conduct situation, connected to the profession.

I'm really just wanting to do a bit of digging around the edges to see if it's something we should discuss with the TOC/provider.

Thanks again

Well, if we're talking about a profession like the legal one where there is a serious integrity issue than I guess you may wish to dig around the edges.

I know a lot about Delay Repay as I used to process them (and I know how people commit fraud on them too!). If you DM me the route on the season and the number of vouchers (eg - are we talking a few big vouchers or loads and loads of piddly ones?), I will be happy to let you know by private reply if it rings any alarm bells with me.

 

[PavlosA]

Well, if we're talking about a profession like the legal one where there is a serious integrity issue than I guess you may wish to dig around the edges.

I know a lot about Delay Repay as I used to process them (and I know how people commit fraud on them too!). If you DM me the route on the season and the number of vouchers (eg - are we talking a few big vouchers or loads and loads of piddly ones?), I will be happy to let you know by private reply if it rings any alarm bells with me.

Much appreciated

 

[gray1404]

I don't understand why this is your concern? Are you out to cause trouble? If the person was out to benefit from false claims then they would be using the vouchers for their own personal use.

 

[furlong]

I don't understand why this is your concern? Are you out to cause trouble? If the person was out to benefit from false claims then they would be using the vouchers for their own personal use.

(Why do you think it's not for their personal benefit? Employers don't normally bear the cost of season tickets as a taxable benefit, but they do purchase them and employees bear the cost via payroll/season ticket loans.)

 

[StarCrossing]

I don't understand why this is your concern? Are you out to cause trouble? If the person was out to benefit from false claims then they would be using the vouchers for their own personal use.

I'd get into big trouble in my place of work if a colleague was found to be committing fraud, and it later transpired that I'd suspected something, but not followed up on it.

I'd probably ask in a friendly (astonished!) way how many journeys were delayed for them to get so many vouchers. If the answer seems reasonable, then no worries. If the answer seems suspicious, then pass your concerns on up the line. I wouldn't investigate myself - that does feel a bit dodgy! Even if it seems fine, I'd probably make a written note on the claim (or in an email to your manager) that the amount of vouchers was surprisingly large, but that you've spoken to the employee and the explanation was satisfactory. It may seem like overkill, but it will help cover your back.

As a slight aside, I've heard stories of people who commit this type of fraud who are quite open with friends and colleagues about it, as they don't think of it as a crime.

 

[35B]

The other angle may be to do with how the season is paid for and who should benefit from the vouchers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gareth Marston]

If the season ticket holder was committing fraud why we would he/she present his ( integrity laden) employer with all the evidence of their voucher use so someone could ask questions?

 

[najaB]

If the season ticket holder was committing fraud why we would he/she present his ( integrity laden) employer with all the evidence of their voucher use so someone could ask questions?

Perhaps, like many people, they don't see 'pulling a fast one' on the train company as a crime.

 

[gray1404]

Surely it is for the issuing TOC to investigate and suspected fraud before (or indeed after) issuing a RTV. I just find it hard that someone would take it upon themselves to investigate.

 

[furlong]

If the season ticket holder was committing fraud why we would he/she present his ( integrity laden) employer with all the evidence of their voucher use so someone could ask questions?

1. It's a common approach - even if there's no requirement to provide further details, refusing to do so without good reason might itself be considered grounds to report suspicions.

2. In this case, it's presumably the employer that is actually responsible for the purchase, so if it's not completely satisfied of the provenance of the vouchers it could simply refuse to handle them.

 

[najaB]

Surely it is for the issuing TOC to investigate and suspected fraud before (or indeed after) issuing a RTV. I just find it hard that someone would take it upon themselves to investigate.

The potential fraud isn't against the TOC, it's against the employer.

 

[gray1404]

How so?? I am not sure if I am quite understanding the OPs situation.

Thanks.

 

[najaB]

If I understand it they are concerned that the colleague is using their work-provided season ticket for non-work travel (based on the number of delay repay claims that have been made).

Could be reading it wrong though.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If I understand it they are concerned that the colleague is using their work-provided season ticket for non-work travel (based on the number of delay repay claims that have been made).

Could be reading it wrong though.

There's nothing in the terms and conditions of a season ticket limiting its use apart from obviously it being date valid and used by the person it's issued to. Unles the company has a specfic condition of supply that it can't be used for non work related travel there's nothing stopping the person using it as and when.

 

[furlong]

We'd better ask the OP. I'd assumed it was a normal season ticket loan situation like Northern's scheme.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just wondering could the employee be claiming delay repay for business trips purchased through the corporate provider? You don't need to many compensation claims on Anytime fares to start racking up big numbers.

 

[furlong]

Detectable fraud could arise in various ways, for example, if claims were made for journeys that weren't actually undertaken (with the aid of websites that show delays on particular journeys) while the employee was at their desk.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure what all this speculation is going to achieve. There is nothing saying the OP is not allowed to investigate what he considers potential fraud, so just let him be. He may have a very good reason he isn't willing to share.

If we have anything useful to add, the great. If not, he'll just have do it by himself.

I don't think it will be very fruitful doing such investigations himself, but then I don't know all the relevant factors involved.

 

[PavlosA]

Just to hopefully clarify my concerns.

These are not claims made against business trips, simply claims against an annual season. The season is for commuting and purchased by the employer, repaid by employee by way of interest free loan.

My main concern is what many of you have mentioned. We seem to agree that if the vouchers have been claimed for journeys not undertaken this amounts to fraud. An individual seen to be behaving fraudulently highlights potential risks for an employer. It's not about causing trouble, it's about investigating risks.

 

[matt_world2004]

Just to hopefully clarify my concerns.

These are not claims made against business trips, simply claims against an annual season. The season is for commuting and purchased by the employer, repaid by employee by way of interest free loan.

My main concern is what many of you have mentioned. We seem to agree that if the vouchers have been claimed for journeys not undertaken this amounts to fraud. An individual seen to be behaving fraudulently highlights potential risks for an employer. It's not about causing trouble, it's about investigating risks.

Is the employee in question allowed to use their season ticket purchased with the interest free loan for personal (non residential) travel? if the employee in question is getting over £1000 worth of delay repay it is very unlikely that they will remember the trains that were delayed for every trip.

What I will say even for non southern commuting £1000 of delay repay is not impossible to reach (A colleague of mine reached that on abellio greater anglia) especially if they are changing from one low frequency service to another low frequency service. , travelling socially It is going to be very difficult for someone outside the railway company to prove.

 

[Clip]

Just to hopefully clarify my concerns.

These are not claims made against business trips, simply claims against an annual season. The season is for commuting and purchased by the employer, repaid by employee by way of interest free loan.

My main concern is what many of you have mentioned. We seem to agree that if the vouchers have been claimed for journeys not undertaken this amounts to fraud. An individual seen to be behaving fraudulently highlights potential risks for an employer. It's not about causing trouble, it's about investigating risks.

Then you need to make it clear to us what the dates you are mentioning are from?

Are they the dates that the Vouchers were issued? Because thats just batch issuing and nothing wrong with any of it imo.

Is the employee in question allowed to use their season ticket purchased with the interest free loan for personal (non residential) travel?

A season ticket through work is issued as a normal season ticket so they can use it as they wish unless of course its a Priv and possibly forces but there is no info stating this so im treating it as a normal season ticket that anyone can purchase.

 

[GarethW]

OP in last post has clarified everything.

The only absolute proof of what they clearly suspect their employee of doing, would be if they could tie time and date of a delay repay claim to when the employee was demonstratably somewhere else (presumably at work), which they can't.

Not a great position for either the employer or employee. I'm presuming there's previous in the relationship of which we are unaware.

 

[PavlosA]

Thanks for all your thoughts. I think we have reason to look into it further, but shouldn't say more than that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

We seem to agree that if the vouchers have been claimed for journeys not undertaken this amounts to fraud. An individual seen to be behaving fraudulently highlights potential risks for an employer.

If all the vouchers are from the same TOC, it is more likely that they are legitimate. TOCs can, and do, cross-check against previous claims, especially when there are numerous claims from the same individual on the same ticket. TOCs have prosecuted people for fraud where it is impossible for them to have travelled on the service they claim to have.