Delay Repay overpayment again!

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure if this is the right subforum, but I guess so?

So once again I've been substantially overpaid a DR claim - I put in for a 15 minute claim (roughly £6) and have been paid a 2 hour one (roughly £50).

Appealed it explaining this (as I'm honest) and they declined the appeal, and the 2 hour full refund has been sent.

Do people think I've done enough there not to potentially be accused of fraudulent claims? I wonder if they did it on the basis of what would have happened if I'd taken the recommended time to cross London or something, as I'm sure last time this happened it was a cross London one too?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

You've given them what I assume works as written evidence that you tried to get it corrected.
If you don't mind me asking, how much is the difference in value here? If it's a small ticket it may not be worth their time to bother with.

 

[jon0844]

I can't see what else you can do if they've refused to pay you less money.

You've done more than many people would, so I'd say enjoy the money and don't worry about any future accusations. Do keep records though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You've given them what I assume works as written evidence that you tried to get it corrected.
If you don't mind me asking, how much is the difference in value here? If it's a small ticket it may not be worth their time to bother with.

About £44.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What was the method of payment of the Delay Repay amount?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the method of payment of the Delay Repay amount?

BACS.

 

[Southern Beau]

But surely you’ve not submitted a fraudulent claim?
You have submitted correct details, the TOC has assessed your claim and made payment based on their calculation.
Even if they carried out an audit at a later date and discovered an overpayment had been made, this could not be classed as a “fraudulent claim”

 

[AlterEgo]

But surely you’ve not submitted a fraudulent claim?
You have submitted correct details, the TOC has assessed your claim and made payment based on their calculation.
Even if they carried out an audit at a later date and discovered an overpayment had been made, this could not be classed as a “fraudulent claim”

Knowingly keeping an overpayment is theft by finding. But @Bletchleyite has done the right thing in reporting it and the company is insistent they have paid it correctly.

 

[Southern Beau]

So “theft by finding”, how would a TOC proceed with this offence?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The journey was Lymington to Bletchley.

I suspect how it happened may be that I diverted via Reading and Paddington on XC and GWR (valid, but probably not intuitively expected, and with quite a fortunate very tight connection at Reading) and saved a few minutes that way, and then crossed London quite quickly (10 minutes or so Paddington-Euston if I recall). I'd imagine their checking software just works out an itinerary, and there was also a cancellation out of Euston which might, all added up, have taken it from a 20 minute delay to just over an hour, though I don't see how it'd have got past two.

An interesting question is whether an appeal is enough to point it out (they clearly didn't read it, I suspect, and just saw an appeal on a 2 hour claim and rejected it) or whether I really should be contacting customer services, even if they're unlikely to have a process to repay it.

 

[AdamWW]

Do people think I've done enough there not to potentially be accused of fraudulent claims?

Absolutely!

And I strongly suspect most people would have just kept the money in the first place.

Knowingly keeping an overpayment is theft by finding.

I would have thought that this would be a difficult case to argue.

You don't actually request a specific amount of money.

You describe your journey and what the delay was, and they calculate how much they owe.

I don't think there should be any obligation for the passenger to look up the rules and do their own calculation to check that the railway hasn't made a mistake.

If would be different if someone claimed 2 hours delay when it was 15 minutes, though it might be hard to show that they didn't just inadvertently push the wrong button.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

The journey was Lymington to Bletchley.

I suspect how it happened may be that I diverted via Reading and Paddington on XC and GWR (valid, but probably not intuitively expected, and with quite a fortunate very tight connection at Reading) and saved a few minutes that way, and then crossed London quite quickly (10 minutes or so Paddington-Euston if I recall). I'd imagine their checking software just works out an itinerary, and there was also a cancellation out of Euston which might, all added up, have taken it from a 20 minute delay to just over an hour, though I don't see how it'd have got past two.

Or perhaps someone who has to get through a huge stack of these in a day just pressed the wrong button?

 

[Haywain]

An interesting question is whether an appeal is enough to point it out (they clearly didn't read it, I suspect, and just saw an appeal on a 2 hour claim and rejected it) or whether I really should be contacting customer services, even if they're unlikely to have a process to repay it.

In the same situation, I would contact customer services.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don't think there should be any obligation for the passenger to look up the rules and do their own calculation to check that the railway hasn't made a mistake.

Rather getting onto hypotheticals now (and to remain on topic, I think that the OP has taken reasonable steps to draw the railway's attention to their error: as the railway has not chosen to action this, the OP can now reasonably walk away with the DR actually paid) but there's a difference between 'look up the rules and do their own calculation to check that the railway hasn't made a mistake' on the one hand, and 'spot that you suddenly have much more money than you expected'.

In this case, the OP was expecting ~£6, and received ~£50 - more than 8 times as much. To my mind, most people would notice a mispayment which was this much wrong - and just pocketing it without trying to correct the matter might well (IANAL...) constitute 'theft by finding'.

I've already said that I think that the OP has taken enough steps to mitigate the matter and put any blame back on to the railway: realistically, even if the railway disagree, they will look at the absolute amount involved (an overpayment of ~£44) and the fact that the OP would, if taken to court, have a reasonable argument to put to the magistrate, and so the railway will decide not to give themselves the hassle and expense of prosecuting.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would have thought that this would be a difficult case to argue.

You don't actually request a specific amount of money.

You describe your journey and what the delay was, and they calculate how much they owe.

I don't think there should be any obligation for the passenger to look up the rules and do their own calculation to check that the railway hasn't made a mistake.

Academic. The passenger knows the rules and knows he’s been overpaid in this case. And has successfully seen off any allegation by contesting it and saying “are you sure?”.

 

[miklcct]

In the same situation, I would contact customer services.

When I lived in an area served by SWR, a significant portion of Delay Repay was overpaid. The reason was that, by chasing subsequent connections and changing trains unnecessarily, I could usually catch up the delay down a band and would put in the appropriate claim. If I was to contact customer services every single time I was overpaid, I would be very busy.

 

[AdamWW]

In the same situation, I would contact customer services.

I wouldn't. I would consider that I'd done everything reasonable.

In any case by the time customer services had passed the "complaint" on to someone and it had been dealt with and a repayment requested and processed (do they even have a mechanism for that?), I'm not sure how much change they'd have left from the £44 they'd "saved".

And my experience in recent years with railway customer services has not been good so I'm not exactly pre-disposed to get them involved.

(And off topic but just to show that I don't just moan about things, I have had some sensible responses from bus company customer services recently).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Bletchleyite could always now make a £44 donation to a railway charity, I suppose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Bletchleyite could always now make a £44 donation to a railway charity, I suppose.

I did that last time it happened, but last time it wasn't quite such a big difference, it was I think that I was paid an hour and claimed 30 minutes.

 

[Southern Beau]

I did that last time it happened, but last time it wasn't quite such a big difference, it was I think that I was paid an hour and claimed 30 minutes.

But would making a donation to a charity remove the “offence” being pursued by the TOC?

 

[4COR]

I'd imagine their checking software just works out an itinerary, and there was also a cancellation out of Euston which might, all added up, have taken it from a 20 minute delay to just over an hour, though I don't see how it'd have got past two.

I think this is the way that GWR do it as well (or at least did the last time I used it): it appears that they base the itinerary on the one that was booked originally. Similarly to you, an overpayment was made as I went an alternative, but valid route to the original booking (via London vice Reading/Redhill) and got lucky with connections. I claimed (accurately) for sometihing like a 40 min delay from memory, but was paid for a 60-119min delay instead - I could only assume that they used the timings of the original route.

 

[AdamWW]

But would making a donation to a charity remove the “offence” being pursued by the TOC?

If the TOC had the grounds to pursue this legally and the willingness to do so, then presumably no.

But I think we have a consensus that this is extremely unlikely, leaving the recipient with the moral question of whether to benefit from the error or not.

(My personal view is that since the railway is happy to use the "timetable of the day" principle to not pay out, and also argue that if someone misses a connection and thus arrives an hour later than they expected to, they only get 30 minutes worth of compensation when the public timetable is padded, they haven't taken the high ground when it comes to morals).

 

[43066]

Not sure if this is the right subforum, but I guess so?

So once again I've been substantially overpaid a DR claim - I put in for a 15 minute claim (roughly £6) and have been paid a 2 hour one (roughly £50).

Appealed it explaining this (as I'm honest) and they declined the appeal, and the 2 hour full refund has been sent.

Do people think I've done enough there not to potentially be accused of fraudulent claims? I wonder if they did it on the basis of what would have happened if I'd taken the recommended time to cross London or something, as I'm sure last time this happened it was a cross London one too?

Commendably honest, and there’s surely zero possibility of being accused of fraudulent claims where the claim was genuine, and simply overpaid in error!

(My personal view is that since the railway is happy to use the "timetable of the day" principle to not pay out, and also argue that if someone misses a connection and thus arrives an hour later than the expected to, they only get 30 minutes worth of compensation when the public timetable is padded, they haven't taken the high ground when it comes to morals).

That argument could be used to justify just about anything.

 

[fandroid]

You could possibly have made it cast iron by asking in the appeal for details of how to repay the £44, saying you'll hang onto to it until that information is received.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could possibly have made it cast iron by asking in the appeal for details of how to repay the £44, saying you'll hang onto to it until that information is received.

I suspect they haven't read it, they just saw an appeal on the maximum payment, went "wha?" and rejected. They will have a lot to get through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

I think this is the way that GWR do it as well (or at least did the last time I used it): it appears that they base the itinerary on the one that was booked originally. Similarly to you, an overpayment was made as I went an alternative, but valid route to the original booking (via London vice Reading/Redhill) and got lucky with connections. I claimed (accurately) for sometihing like a 40 min delay from memory, but was paid for a 60-119min delay instead - I could only assume that they used the timings of the original route.

It's the same system as it's FirstGroup. Last time it happened I think it was indeed GWR.

Cross London timings do seem to complicate it. I know at least one other TOC (probably Avanti) asks you to not only enter what you should have done but also what you did in order that this sort of thing is avoided, but it does seem a bit of a hole in the process not to cap at what's being claimed even if they think it should be higher - if nothing else it saves them money even if the lower claim was a mistake.

But even if I did leave the maximum cross London time and travel via the original route rather than gaining back a bit of time by putting myself through the purgatory of a journey on XC*, I don't see how it could have got over 2 hours for a full refund. So quite possibly just the wrong button!

* Which was heaving as usual. But mostly because it picked up local passengers - the majority seemed to be "lads lads lads" heading for Basingstoke for a night out - who'd have thought Basingstoke was the clubbing capital of the world?! But LNR were earlier on having a bad day due to the overtime ban so I felt it best to get to Euston as early as possible rather than wait for SWR to get sorted, though as it turned out only one of the "vomit comets", the 2309, was canned.

 

[43066]

I suspect they haven't read it, they just saw an appeal on the maximum payment, went "wha?" and rejected. They will have a lot to get through.

I really wouldn’t worry about it. You’ve already done more than most would to try and rectify it!

Maybe donate it to the railway benevolent fund, or a charity the relevant TOC supports.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Maybe donate it to the railway benevolent fund, or a charity the relevant TOC supports.

I mean wouldn't the better thing for the TOC be spending it on train travel?
Feels like a nice excuse to go somewhere to me

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mean wouldn't the better thing for the TOC be spending it on train travel?
Feels like a nice excuse to go somewhere to me

I used to feel less bad if this happened with vouchers because the railway would get them back in travel form anyway!

 

[AdamWW]

I used to feel less bad if this happened with vouchers because the railway would get them back in travel form anyway!

But unless that would have caused you to make a rail journey where otherwise you'd have spent the money on something else, they'd be financially in the same position whether you pay for £44 worth of future journeys in cash or vouchers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But unless that would have caused you to make a rail journey where otherwise you'd have spent the money on something else, they'd be financially in the same position whether you pay for £44 worth of future journeys in cash or vouchers.

RTVs often were an invitation to make an extra journey

 

[AdamWW]

RTVs often were an invitation to make an extra journey

Well you'll just have to pretend the cash was a voucher then...