Delay Repay or Refund query (significant delay on LNER)

[Brooke]

Hi all & Happy New Year! Please can I get your advice on the following?

On Monday I had an Advance Single booked directly with LNER for their 1718 depart from Kings Cross to Peterborough arrive 1808.

The 1718 train was delayed 'indefinitely' according to gateline staff at the time while other trains were on time, so I eventually just bought a Super Off-Peak Single in the LNER app and jumped on the next train (which turned out to be the 1803 depart, which arrived Peterborough on time at 1849).

Separately I see that the 1718 did eventually run, arriving Peterborough 92 minutes late.

So I was delayed by 41 minutes, but by paying again and without ever using my original ticket. Had I stuck it out and used the original ticket, I would have been 92 late but without additional cost to me.

What should I do now please?

Should I claim Delay Repay on the original ticket for a delay of 92 minutes? Or should I claim that I did not travel (on that ticket) and seek a refund due to the delay?

Thanks!

 

[Ben Rhydding]

I would say that purchase of the second ticket was unnecessary. A train delayed indefinitely is as good as cancelled. The OP should be entitled to delay repay based on 41 minutes. Plus refund of the unnecessary ticket.

If a train is described as delayed, it is not necessary to wait for them actually to confirm it is cancelled for ticket procedures to apply. It may take hours, if ever, for screens to change from "delayed" to "cancelled". If the expected delay was at least an hour, then PRO would entitle the passenger to rerouting. And PIDD says that passengers should not be charged extra in the event of disruption.

If, in the end, the train ran 92 minutes late, then an expectation that it would be delayed by at least an hour seems to have been vindicated.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all & Happy New Year! Please can I get your advice on the following?

On Monday I had an Advance Single booked directly with LNER for their 1718 depart from Kings Cross to Peterborough arrive 1808.

The 1718 train was delayed 'indefinitely' according to gateline staff at the time while other trains were on time, so I eventually just bought a Super Off-Peak Single in the LNER app and jumped on the next train (which turned out to be the 1803 depart, which arrived Peterborough on time at 1849).

Separately I see that the 1718 did eventually run, arriving Peterborough 92 minutes late.

So I was delayed by 41 minutes, but by paying again and without ever using my original ticket. Had I stuck it out and used the original ticket, I would have been 92 late but without additional cost to me.

What should I do now please?

Should I claim Delay Repay on the original ticket for a delay of 92 minutes? Or should I claim that I did not travel (on that ticket) and seek a refund due to the delay?

Thanks!

Why did you buy another ticket? Your first one was good for travel on the 1803 as your booked train was delayed. Did anyone advise you to buy the new ticket?

 

[Haywain]

I would say that purchase of the second ticket was unnecessary.

I agree with this.

The OP should be entitled to delay repay based on 41 minutes. Plus refund of the unnecessary ticket.

I also agree with this. However, I would advise against claiming Delay Repay and a refund as separate actions - claiming a refund for a used ticket is likely to lead to problems. Therefore, I would suggest that the OP should contact LNER customer relations and explain the whole situation, which will hopefully allow it to be resolved correctly.

 

[Vexed]

I agree with the previous two posters, you should contact LNER with an explanation of the situation instead of going through automated portals.

For delay relay LNER might decide you shouldn't get any as you could have got the 1730 or 1748 LNER services. Whether this is fair or not is debatable. But at the very least I would expect the super off peak single back.

 

[Belperpete]

Does the fact that the OP wasn't told to buy the new ticket, but did so on his own initiative, have any bearing? Effectively, the OP decided to abandon his original journey, and buy a ticket for a different journey.

What tickets were scanned either during the journey or at gate lines?

 

[Brooke]

Hello everyone, thanks for the responses!

To clarify one point, yes the LNER gate line staff said I should wait for the train as it was delayed. So the only options (in the way they presented it anyway) were to buy a new ticket or to wait for the delayed train.

I’ll reach LNER customer services and present the facts as advised and let you all know from there!

 

[Belperpete]

Hello everyone, thanks for the responses!

To clarify one point, yes the LNER gate line staff said I should wait for the train as it was delayed. So the only options (in the way they presented it anyway) were to buy a new ticket or to wait for the delayed train.

I’ll reach LNER customer services and present the facts as advised and let you all know from there!

Thanks for the clarification, it is not the impression given in your OP. I recommend that you make this clear in your account to LNER, as it puts the reason for you buying the second ticket firmly on LNER's shoulders, and therefore for them to resolve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2025 ==

A train delayed indefinitely is as good as cancelled.

Where does it say anything like this in the NRCoT or similar?

If a train is described as delayed, it is not necessary to wait for them actually to confirm it is cancelled for ticket procedures to apply. It may take hours, if ever, for screens to change from "delayed" to "cancelled". If the expected delay was at least an hour, then PRO would entitle the passenger to rerouting.
If, in the end, the train ran 92 minutes late, then an expectation that it would be delayed by at least an hour seems to have been vindicated.

The problem with this reasoning is that the passenger has no way of knowing the expected delay. So at the time, the passenger has no way of knowing whether they are entitled to rerouting or such like. As you say, a train may stay shown as delayed for hours. But you can't just assume that because a train is currently showing as delayed that it is going to be cancelled, and therefore you are entitled to reroute yourself. In the other extreme, it is not unknown for a train shown as "delayed" to magically reappear as running on time, or near enough.

Being vindicated after the event is all very well. But what if you aren't?

 

[Brooke]

Hi everyone, just to let you know that this panned out as you anticipated.

After a bit of an email back & forth with Customer Services I received a refund for the walk on ticket purchase, plus some delay repay against the first ticket.

For some reason the refund was made very quickly, but the delay repay has taken a couple of weeks to arrive.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

 

[redreni]

The problem with this reasoning is that the passenger has no way of knowing the expected delay. So at the time, the passenger has no way of knowing whether they are entitled to rerouting or such like. As you say, a train may stay shown as delayed for hours. But you can't just assume that because a train is currently showing as delayed that it is going to be cancelled, and therefore you are entitled to reroute yourself. In the other extreme, it is not unknown for a train shown as "delayed" to magically reappear as running on time, or near enough.

Being vindicated after the event is all very well. But what if you aren't?

If we're talking PRO, there's no entitlement to re-route yourself anyway. The entitlement is to be re-routed. If the TOC fails in its legal duty to re-route you when it is obliged to do so, the civil remedy for that might include recovering the cost of re-routing yourself (by buying a new ticket), if in fact you incur such a cost. And if you want to get to your destination without undue further delay, you can of course decide to incur those costs with the intention of seeking to recover them.

The entitlement to be re-routed is engaged where it is reasonably to be expected that arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be subject to a delay of 60 minutes or more. Plainly there will be circumstances in which it is reasonable to expect, based on the information available, that a train is going to be at least 60 minutes late arriving at the destination even if it hasn't been cancelled.

This happened to me a couple of weeks ago - sitting on a London-bound Avanti train at Manchester Piccadilly the scheduled departure time came and went, and then the guard announced that the line was closed near Milton Keynes (for very sad reasons) and that a further announcement would be made in due course. That nobody could say exactly when the line would re-open, and the fact the train was just showing as "delayed" and hadn't been cancelled, did not alter the fact it was reasonable in those circumstances to expect it would take longer than an hour for the line to re-open (RTT showed a delay of about 3 hours on that train in the end, I think). In that case ticket acceptance was put in place and I was able to travel via Doncaster, so that effectively fulfilled Avanti's PRO obligations given that I wished to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity. The idea that the obligation couldn't have arisen until and unless they cancelled my booked train is not correct, though.