Delay Repay Irregularity

[Anon21]

Hi, I have received a letter from LNER with the following information:

Following a review of our Delay Repay system we have identified multiple irregular claims submitted by yourself.

Submitting a claim for Delay Repay for a journey you have not made would constitute an offence under The Fraud Act 2006, and if found guilty can lead to a criminal conviction.

We are now preparing your case for prosecution. Should you believe these claims were made legitimately please provide an explanation or alternatively there is the option to reimburse LNER for the value of the false claims made, plus the accrued administration fee.

Please provide your response within the next 14 days, or if you choose to do so payment can be made
by the following means:
Phone: (not Amex) Phone: 0800 044 3344 (payment line only) and enter your telephone payment
reference: 47285546
Bank Transfer: Sort Code 16-04-00 Account No: 10902969. Account Name: London North Eastern
Railway.

If we are unable to reach a satisfactory resolution your case will continue for prosecution.

They have requested I pay over £2000 including admin fees.

I have made maybe 10-12 claims via LNER over the past 3-4 years and it seems like they are suggesting every claim I’ve ever made is fraudulent.

I have provided a response outlining that I regularly travel by rail and regularly encounter delays and in these instances I have claimed for the delay using their system. I have contested the suggestion that my claims are fraudulent and I have asked for clarification so I can provide a more detailed response if needed. This was more than a week ago and I haven’t had any further communication. I sent another email today to chase and have still heard nothing.

Has anybody encountered a similar situation with LNER and how did they deal with it?

Whilst I don’t believe I’m in the wrong and am confident that they must have made a mistake, I also don’t want to go down the route of being prosecuted and all that entails.

On the other hand I don’t really want to pay £2500 of money that I believe is mine and I’ve been entitled to claim.

If they don’t respond to me before the 14 day deadline, what should I do? Do I continue to wait for a response or is my only recourse to pay the money or fight prosecution?

How can they possibly make a case for me committing fraud if I haven’t and why have they randomly pursued this now?

Any thoughts and advice would be welcome.

Many Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you upload the entire letter by way of photo or scan, with your personal details redacted?

Please also copy in your email back to them into the post.

It's important to look at the correspondence in full first before we go any further.

 

[Anon21]

Mod note: image has been redacted to remove the OP's name

Can you upload the entire letter by way of photo or scan, with your personal details redacted?

Please also copy in your email back to them into the post.

It's important to look at the correspondence in full first before we go any further.

My initial email:

I am writing to confirm receipt of your letter dated 4th July 2023 which refers to delay repay irregularities.

I live in XXX and travel across the UK for business and pleasure. At times this has included regular travel to London (anything from several times a week to every other week or month). As a result I have encountered my fair share of delays and cancellations across most of the train lines. When a train has been delayed and I've had the opportunity I have followed the train operators delay repay process and that is equally true for the LNER delay repay scheme.

As far as I'm aware I have provided appropriate evidence as requested by the online forms for each claim and whilst I have made mistakes on occasion, LNER has been in contact to clarify and the mistakes have been corrected or resolved. This is the first I have been alerted to any irregularities.

The only additional information I can think to add without further information, is that I typically purchase anytime return tickets, this is because my plans frequently change and I require more flexibility to be able to catch an earlier or later train than I originally intended, or in case I travel elsewhere and can use the return portion of the ticket at a later date.

I would welcome clarification on the 'multiple irregularities' referenced in your letter and in that way I may be able to provide further details if the above does not resolve your query.

My follow up email:

I am just following up on my previous email sent on the 9th July as I have not heard from you.

Are you able to provide clarity on the irregularities mentioned in your email/letter of the 4th July?

I am conscious that you mention a 14 day period to resolve the issue which presumably expires tomorrow and without a response and further clarity I am unclear as to what further information you require.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't recall LNER cropping up on here as a train company which habitually sends these letters out.

I think your reply to them was fine and you've avoided saying anything incriminating.

It might be helpful to know a little of your travel history and your claim history to see why LNER might consider it suspicious in case they do ask for further evidence or press you on this. Do you use paper tickets or e-tickets? Where do you buy them from - LNER or another retailer, or at the station/TVM? Are you sure none of the affected delay repay legs have also been refunded from the retailer?

10-12 claims is not a high number of claims for 3-4 years at all, but you mention that they are suggesting every claim was fraudulent, and that their demand comes to £2500. You've been averaging about £200-250 a claim? That is an eyebrow-raising figure. You also mention errors that you have made when claiming, although LNER and you have worked through the details and they have been paid eventually and validated. What sort of errors are we talking about here?

The bar for fraud is quite high and it is good to get a feel of what, if any, evidence LNER have against you.

 

[Anon21]

I don't recall LNER cropping up on here as a train company which habitually sends these letters out.

I think your reply to them was fine and you've avoided saying anything incriminating.

It might be helpful to know a little of your travel history and your claim history to see why LNER might consider it suspicious in case they do ask for further evidence or press you on this. Do you use paper tickets or e-tickets? Where do you buy them from - LNER or another retailer, or at the station/TVM? Are you sure none of the affected delay repay legs have also been refunded from the retailer?

10-12 claims is not a high number of claims for 3-4 years at all you mention that they are suggesting every claim was fraudulent, and that their demand comes to £2500. You've been averaging about £200-250 a claim? That is an eyebrow-raising figure. You also mention errors that you have made when claiming, although LNER and you have worked through the details and they have been paid eventually and validated. What sort of errors are we talking about here?

The bar for fraud is quite high and it is good to get a feel of what, if any, evidence LNER have against you.

Most of the tickets I buy are through my works booking system, which has changed over the years but basically is always a third party such as the Trainline. They are always paper tickets, for some reason it won’t let me book e-tickets for London (I suspect because I also book to London Zone 2 so I can use it on the tube as well). I’ve bought a few tickets at the station and maybe booked a few myself through the trainline over the years.

I’m almost certain no other refund has been provided for any trains, mainly because I haven’t claimed for anything else.

Each ticket averages between £280 and £310 for a return, I can’t find details of all the claims I’ve ever made but I’m guessing at around 10-12 claims.

Over the years I’ve travelled to London anything from twice a month to two or three times a week. The trains are always delayed but I don’t always get a chance to claim for them. However I do try to make a point if it’s an hour or more late.

The errors are just admin errors, either I’ve mistyped something or selected the wrong date or attached the wrong evidence. Normally LNER get in touch quickly to query and it has been resolved.

 

[Starmill]

I don't recall LNER cropping up on here as a train company which habitually sends these letters out.

I think that the reality of life now is that all fourteen are undertaking these reviews internally because you-know-who thinks it's an activity which generates a return on fixed costs. Same as how they're all being told "you spend £x on your trains to provide them with guards, yet you also spend £y in onboard revenue staff, and our surveys rate your revenue protection at onlz z%. Why are your guards not fulfilling the revenue protection part of their role more effectively?".

Obviously both fishing and outright accusing the general public of an offence are brand-damaging activities, and the sensible senior managers will be pointing that out alongside the big risks for business ethics.

The large business I'm familiar with will almost never bring up the possibility of legal action first (they would of course respond carefully if the other side did), in order to avoid the above two pitfalls. Action would simply never be taken implying or alleging an actual offence, either. If an offence is genuinely suspected it would need to be reported to the police.

 

[AlterEgo]

Most of the tickets I buy are through my works booking system, which has changed over the years but basically is always a third party such as the Trainline. They are always paper tickets, for some reason it won’t let me book e-tickets for London (I suspect because I also book to London Zone 2 so I can use it on the tube as well). I’ve bought a few tickets at the station and maybe booked a few myself through the trainline over the years.

I’m almost certain no other refund has been provided for any trains, mainly because I haven’t claimed for anything else.

Each ticket averages between £280 and £310 for a return, I can’t find details of all the claims I’ve ever made but I’m guessing at around 10-12 claims.

Over the years I’ve travelled to London anything from twice a month to two or three times a week. The trains are always delayed but I don’t always get a chance to claim for them. However I do try to make a point if it’s an hour or more late.

The errors are just admin errors, either I’ve mistyped something or selected the wrong date or attached the wrong evidence. Normally LNER get in touch quickly to query and it has been resolved.

I used to process a lot of delay repay claims in a previous life working for a TOC (not LNER) - I think there is nothing here which would really arouse much suspicion from what you've said.

This is as @Starmill suggests likely a fishing expedition where they've seen you have made a few high value claims and are now issuing a demand, without merit. My suspicion is they actually have no evidence whatsoever, or reasonable suspicion, and are hoping if they send 25 of these letters out they get 3 or 4 guilty people who pay them a few thousand quid, with the non-responders / people who defend themselves left with no further action.

Do let us know if and when you receive a reply from LNER and share it with us when you do; some other posters will no doubt be along soon, but it is important that you keep calm and don't reply before sharing the content of the email/s for feedback here. It's easy to accidentally incriminate yourself and you definitely don't want that.

 

[Southern Beau]

Are most of your tickets open/period returns?
Are most of the claims made on the return portion of the ticket?
Are most claims for 60mins or more?

The also letter fascinates me that the TOC asks for an explanation for each claim - how about “the delay caused by you!”.

Maybe the TOC should leave a comments field for each claim so you can say “on way home from theatre seeing Hamilton which was great, unfortunately your service was delayed”

 

[Starmill]

You've been averaging about £200-250 a claim? That is an eyebrow-raising figure.

Even if only about half of the trips with delays are at "peak" times, that wouldn't necccesarily be an eyebrow-raising figure. Fairly common now for a First Class advance single to cost over £200. Does the OP sometimes use First Class?

 

[richw]

I can’t see the OP having a case to answer. I imagine I’ve made more claims to higher value over the 3-4 year period mentioned.
The frequency the OP travels his claim rate is pretty low.
I know people in the southwest who opt for Exeter to London via SWR just because the odds of a delay repay are so high. My last 6 SWR trips from Exeter have generated 100% refunds, such is the unreliability of that line.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even if only about half of the trips with delays are at "peak" times, that wouldn't necccesarily be an eyebrow-raising figure. Fairly common now for a First Class advance single to cost over £200. Does the OP sometimes use First Class?

The OP has been using Anytime Returns - and claiming when heavily delayed. Pretty sure there’s no case to answer here.

 

[Anon21]

Are most of your tickets open/period returns?

Yes, usually 1 month returns - it’s just the nature of my work that things might change last minute and I’ve been caught out with advance tickets.

Are most of the claims made on the return portion of the ticket?

Maybe 60-40 split return/outbound

Are most claims for 60mins or more?

Yes

The also letter fascinates me that the TOC asks for an explanation for each claim - how about “the delay caused by you!”.

Haha agreed

 

[Fastlane256]

Maybe the TOC should leave a comments field for each claim so you can say “on way home from theatre seeing Hamilton which was great, unfortunately your service was delayed”

I'm putting that in as a feature request!

 

[island]

Maybe the TOC should leave a comments field for each claim so you can say “on way home from theatre seeing Hamilton which was great, unfortunately your service was delayed”

Don't throw away your shot!

 

[fandroid]

Although carefully worded, that letter from LNER is making a very serious allegation. If they now resort to silence or bland guff I would recommend that the OP demand an apology in writing. If that doesn't work, get their MP and/or local media involved.

 

[John Palmer]

For a bit of context and background: https://www.cipfa.org/qualifications/national-apprenticeship-week/tom-smith

"Tom’s role of Investigations and Prosecutions Manager is a brand-new role for LNER, having come into existence in October following a restructure at LNER." Apparently an October 2022 initiative.

 

[Southern Beau]

it would be interesting to know which criteria LNER used to identify this customer as suspicious:
- total value
- average value (did they consider other booking engines, checks on cards used at ticket machines/offices)
- delay length
- time of journey (ie: claims strayed from regular pattern)
- historical data and performance of that specific route

 

[island]

it would be interesting to know which criteria LNER used to identify this customer as suspicious:
- total value
- average value (did they consider other booking engines, checks on cards used at ticket machines/offices)
- delay length
- time of journey (ie: claims strayed from regular pattern)
- historical data and performance of that specific route

I very much doubt they will release that data.

If I were to speculate or suggest the types of criteria I would consider make a prima facie suggestion of fraud, it would include

• High value
• flexible anytime/off-peak/super off-peak tickets
• Credit card sized tickets
• A large variety of journey origins/destinations
• Journeys being made at a wide range of different times of day

In other words, journeys where there can be no evidence that the passenger claiming actually made the journey in question, as opposed to barcoded or smartcard tickets, or advance tickets.

I must emphasize that I am in no way suggesting the OP's claims are anything other than fully legitimate; I am only answering a subsequent post.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Just a thought. If the OP (ge

it would be interesting to know which criteria LNER used to identify this customer as suspicious:
- total value
- average value (did they consider other booking engines, checks on cards used at ticket machines/offices)
- delay length
- time of journey (ie: claims strayed from regular pattern)
- historical data and performance of that specific route

I wonder if there's also an element of "journeys at random times of the day / week / month" leading them to (wrongly) suspect the OP is selectively choosing late running services

 

[kkong]

Very strange of LNER to send such a letter without a list of the purported "irregular" claims.

How is the OP supposed to "explain" if no details of the alleged fraudulent claims have been provided?

 

[AlterEgo]

I very much doubt they will release that data.

If I were to speculate or suggest the types of criteria I would consider make a prima facie suggestion of fraud, it would include

• High value
• flexible anytime/off-peak/super off-peak tickets
• Credit card sized tickets
• A large variety of journey origins/destinations
• Journeys being made at a wide range of different times of day

That is basically the Swiss cheese model of detecting irregularity and exactly how I would whittle out fraudulent claims in that position. At each stage you do a sift until you get claims which are routinely all five and then you can start drilling a bit deeper.

Very strange of LNER to send such a letter without a list of the purported "irregular" claims.

How is the OP supposed to "explain" if no details of the alleged fraudulent claims have been provided?

I agree and am strongly inclined to think this is a fishing exercise, if they have not even laid out a single suspicious claim.

 

[Southern Beau]

Very strange of LNER to send such a letter without a list of the purported "irregular" claims.

How is the OP supposed to "explain" if no details of the alleged fraudulent claims have been provided?

I seem to remember Greater Anglia carrying out an audit a few years (?) back where they presumed all claims were fraudulent and wanted repayment of all payments (even those which were legitimate).

If you do make a claim, which is approved, is it the passengers responsibility to then prove they made that journey when questioned x months later? And realistically what sort of proof could you provide?

 

[AlterEgo]

If you do make a claim, which is approved, is it the passengers responsibility to then prove they made that journey when questioned x months later?

No, but if it is not a genuine claim then it may harm your defence if you cannot provide evidence to substantiate it, even if it was approved.

 

[Southern Beau]

No, but if it is not a genuine claim then it may harm your defence if you cannot provide evidence to substantiate it, even if it was approved.

Ok, so what could I provide to substantiate my claim? Endorsement on ticket by guard stating time/date of train used?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Ok, so what could I provide to substantiate my claim? Endorsement on ticket by guard stating time/date of train used?

Could be anything. Something that helps put you in the right places at the right times - Outlook diary records showing meeting times and locations, card purchases, messages to people apologising that you'll be late for an appointment because your train's late etc

 

[Haywain]

If they don’t respond to me before the 14 day deadline, what should I do?

The 14 day deadline was, it appears to me, for you to respond to LNER and not for the whole matter to be concluded.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Oh great. They have found a way of criminalizing delay repay now as well. They are already past masters at disputing perfectly valid tickets at virtually any point on your process through the system from trains in the middle of nowhere to ticket barriers staffed by security thugs but challenging perfectly valid claims suggests an element of desperation and a backdoor admission that the service they are running is now so dreadful that delay repay is costing them the GDP of a small third world country.

Delay compensation is already bad enough as it is with its convoluted application process and ever growing army of claim declining AI robots designed to dispute the most basic of hold ups that this really takes it to a new level

Another nail in the coffin of our railway system I fear and another good way of simply putting passengers off using it, we can add this to high fairs and unsuitable trains with nasty seats and the constant erosion of passengers rights on the frequential occasions when the railway screws it up and uses us as collateral.


Very soon they will be able to claim quite accurately that no one is using the network anymore as will all be set on the M1 in a constant traffic jam

 

[Southern Beau]

Could be anything. Something that helps put you in the right places at the right times - Outlook diary records showing meeting times and locations, card purchases, messages to people apologising that you'll be late for an appointment because your train's late etc

Angry text message from wife asking why I keep travelling by train when they are always delayed when I have to be somewhere?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Angry text message from wife asking why I keep travelling by train when they are always delayed when I have to be somewhere?

Absolutely!

 

[Royston Vasey]

They'd never pin anything on me, I have a camera reel of timestamped train photos and RTT screenshots for every journey I ever take!

Perhaps you have some of these?