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Delay repay - in-between strike day

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pdq

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My Mum has tickets - bought through the RailUK site - to travel from Penally to Huddersfield on Thurs 15th Dec. The itinerary on her ticket is to leave PNA at 07:24 and arrive at HUD at 15:08.
It is looking like the 07:24 train is cancelled so the next one is at 09:34 arriving at 17:08.
Obviously it would be better if the 07:24 runs: is that still a possibility? If not, is there any reason around revised timetables and strike action why delay repay wouldn't be applicable, given that she has an itinerary proving the existence of the train at the point of booking?
 
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hkstudent

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My Mum has tickets - bought through the RailUK site - to travel from Penally to Huddersfield on Thurs 16th Dec. The itinerary on her ticket is to leave PNA at 07:24 and arrive at HUD at 15:08.
It is looking like the 07:24 train is cancelled so the next one is at 09:34 arriving at 17:08.
Obviously it would be better if the 07:24 runs: is that still a possibility? If not, is there any reason around revised timetables and strike action why delay repay wouldn't be applicable, given that she has an itinerary proving the existence of the train at the point of booking?
According to the NRCOT change earlier this year, only timetable set at 2200 before travel day would be applicable for delay repay.
Though, as pointed out by many members here, this revision is likely violating contract law and consumer protection law.
 

Andy Pacer

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My Mum has tickets - bought through the RailUK site - to travel from Penally to Huddersfield on Thurs 16th Dec. The itinerary on her ticket is to leave PNA at 07:24 and arrive at HUD at 15:08.
It is looking like the 07:24 train is cancelled so the next one is at 09:34 arriving at 17:08.
Obviously it would be better if the 07:24 runs: is that still a possibility? If not, is there any reason around revised timetables and strike action why delay repay wouldn't be applicable, given that she has an itinerary proving the existence of the train at the point of booking?
Thursday is 15th and Friday is 16th, so are you certain it is the day between the strikes?
 

Watershed

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My Mum has tickets - bought through the RailUK site - to travel from Penally to Huddersfield on Thurs 15th Dec. The itinerary on her ticket is to leave PNA at 07:24 and arrive at HUD at 15:08.
It is looking like the 07:24 train is cancelled so the next one is at 09:34 arriving at 17:08.
Obviously it would be better if the 07:24 runs: is that still a possibility?
No, as the network doesn't reopen until around 07:00 on the days following strike days. That's the time trains can start to leave their depots/stabling locations - so Penally doesn't get its first eastbound train until 09:34, once the first train of the day from Carmarthen (retimed to 07:14) has reached Pembroke Dock and turned back.

If not, is there any reason around revised timetables and strike action why delay repay wouldn't be applicable, given that she has an itinerary proving the existence of the train at the point of booking?
It would also be possible to prove the existence of the train at the time of booking using alternative means, but in short - yes and no.

The National Rail Conditions of travel (NRCoT) were changed earlier this year to include a new definition called the "Published Timetable of the Day" (PToD). This definition essentially purports that the timetable advertised at National Rail Enquiries' website (nre.co.uk) at 22:00 the day before travel is the one that counts for the purposes of delay compensation. In other words, the timetable in place at the time of booking is irrelevant for the purpose of delay compensation.

There's been plenty of discussion on this subject - searching "published timetable of the day site:railforums.co.uk" ought to turn up plenty of threads. Suffice it to say, my view is that this is an unfair and hence unenforceable term, given the context of a consumer contract.

However, that doesn't stop operators from dealing with your claim in line with what the NRCoT say. And thus it quite likely that to obtain the recourse your mother deserves, she would have to take legal action. Whether that would be worth it for the amount of compensation in question would be down to her to decide.

There is also an entitlement to delay compensation, albeit a reduce level compared to what is usually payable under Delay Repay schemes, under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO - again you can read previous threads on this). The PRO specifically states that entitlements under the Regulation cannot be reduced or eliminated by conditions of carriage. However, again this is an example where most operators seem to think they are above the law, and hence you would likely need to take them to court to get what you are owed.

It's a very unsatisfactory position, but unfortunately the rail industry has been doing this with impunity since the PToD concept was introduced - and until there's political intervention, I can't see that changing.
 

Haywain

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Obviously it would be better if the 07:24 runs: is that still a possibility?
As services won't be able to operate before 06.00 so that train's outward working will be cancelled meaning it won't run.
 

pdq

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Thanks all.
It's an £72 ticket - and hopefully the return journey on the following Monday will be uneventful - so it looks like it will have to stay as is. I really though the point of getting an itinerary and reservations at the point of purchase was to give some kind of protection over this kind of event.
It's now further complicated by the fact that the last train eastbound from Manchester to Huddersfield is the 16:27 from P1, which is only 12 mins after the train from Cardiff gets in at P10. That TPE is going to be rammed I expect, and it won't take much delay to Mum's incoming service to render that uncatchable - especially for a 78 year old carrying luggage through an unfamiliar station. So to minimise the risk I am going to pick her up from Stockport. Only a 2hr+ 90 mile hour round trip...

I can understand the early train being cancelled, as the train may not have stabled at the right place. But why is the last eastbound TPE so early?
 

Watershed

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I really though the point of getting an itinerary and reservations at the point of purchase was to give some kind of protection over this kind of event.
It used to be, but the change to the NRCoT means that TOCs feel empowered to ride roughshod over such quaint principles as contract and consumer law...

It's now further complicated by the fact that the last train eastbound from Manchester to Huddersfield is the 16:27 from P1, which is only 12 mins after the train from Cardiff gets in at P10.
To be fair, that's more like a 17 minute change as the Cardiff train is advertised to arrive 5 minutes after its booked working timetable arrival. But Cardiff services do suffer delays fairy frequently, and so there's a possibility of her missing her connection.

I can understand the early train being cancelled, as the train may not have stabled at the right place. But why is the last eastbound TPE so early?
"Because we said so", in essence. TPE run a heavily reduced timetable on strike 'shoulder' days for, but there's no public reason for it. Most of their depots are staffed by people who aren't on strike. Drivers aren't on strike, and neither are conductors or dispatchers on the 'shoulder' days. TfW (and other TOCs) demonstrate that running a near full timetable after a late startup is perfectly possible.
 

pdq

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So... this is what happened today. There was a points failure at Cardiff which conspired to make it a very long day. She left home at 9:15 and we arrived at my house at 20:30. Bear in mind that my Mum is 78.
According to the published timetable of the day, she should have left Penally at 9:30 and arrived at Stockport at 16:00. As mentioned up-thread, she had a ticket through to Huddersfield, so actually should have changed at Manchester and arrived at HUD at 17:10. I was definitely right not to trust that option.

The train was on time at Penally but left Tenby 27 late and arrived at Swansea 17 late.
The Swansea - Paddington 11:23 service left at 12:17 and arrived Cardiff at 13:00. Mum could have travelled on to Bristol Parkway and caught the Cross Country to Manchester but there were no '10 minute reservations' available and I reckoned it would be rammed and uncomfortable for an elderly person to be squashed in for 3 hours on a 4-carriage Voyager. In any case, she had already got off at Cardiff by the time I could make contact.

RTT was showing absolutely no trains from Cardiff to Manchester until the 14:49. I had no confidence this would run (as it happened, it did - with a 2-carriage 150) so advised Mum to get the 13:57 to Crewe on the basis it was at least in the right direction. I would drive there and collect her. I had already planned to go to Stockport (see earlier) so an extra 45 mins or so was worth it for the assurance she would get to me in one piece without hanging around in sub-zero temperatures for too long.

That train was 30 late and arrived at Crewe at 17:00. Had she needed to travel on to Stockport it seems she would have got there at 18:25 on the aforementioned TfW 150... There was absolutely no way she could have made it to Huddersfield!

So, notwithstanding my 4 hour, 150 mile round trip, what delay repay can we claim for? If we keep things simple and take Crewe as the destination, she should have got there at 15:28, so was 92 mins late, but if we take HUD as the destination, who knows when she would have got there. I'd hope TPE would have taxied her over the M62.

I'd really like her to get the full ticket cost back to compensate for the disruption. Is this feasible?
At least she has got here safe, and just a little tired. Thanks all.
 

Watershed

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So... this is what happened today. There was a points failure at Cardiff which conspired to make it a very long day. She left home at 9:15 and we arrived at my house at 20:30. Bear in mind that my Mum is 78.
According to the published timetable of the day, she should have left Penally at 9:30 and arrived at Stockport at 16:00. As mentioned up-thread, she had a ticket through to Huddersfield, so actually should have changed at Manchester and arrived at HUD at 17:10. I was definitely right not to trust that option.

The train was on time at Penally but left Tenby 27 late and arrived at Swansea 17 late.
The Swansea - Paddington 11:23 service left at 12:17 and arrived Cardiff at 13:00. Mum could have travelled on to Bristol Parkway and caught the Cross Country to Manchester but there were no '10 minute reservations' available and I reckoned it would be rammed and uncomfortable for an elderly person to be squashed in for 3 hours on a 4-carriage Voyager. In any case, she had already got off at Cardiff by the time I could make contact.

RTT was showing absolutely no trains from Cardiff to Manchester until the 14:49. I had no confidence this would run (as it happened, it did - with a 2-carriage 150) so advised Mum to get the 13:57 to Crewe on the basis it was at least in the right direction. I would drive there and collect her. I had already planned to go to Stockport (see earlier) so an extra 45 mins or so was worth it for the assurance she would get to me in one piece without hanging around in sub-zero temperatures for too long.

That train was 30 late and arrived at Crewe at 17:00. Had she needed to travel on to Stockport it seems she would have got there at 18:25 on the aforementioned TfW 150... There was absolutely no way she could have made it to Huddersfield!

So, notwithstanding my 4 hour, 150 mile round trip, what delay repay can we claim for? If we keep things simple and take Crewe as the destination, she should have got there at 15:28, so was 92 mins late, but if we take HUD as the destination, who knows when she would have got there. I'd hope TPE would have taxied her over the M62.

I'd really like her to get the full ticket cost back to compensate for the disruption. Is this feasible?
At least she has got here safe, and just a little tired. Thanks all.
Yet another passenger inconvenienced by the strikes. I wouldn't blame your mother if she decided not to risk travelling by train again.

What ticket(s) did she hold (cost/type/to/from? This will influence how much by way of compensation or refund she is entitled to, and what the easiest way of obtaining recourse is.
 

hkstudent

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So... this is what happened today. There was a points failure at Cardiff which conspired to make it a very long day. She left home at 9:15 and we arrived at my house at 20:30. Bear in mind that my Mum is 78.
According to the published timetable of the day, she should have left Penally at 9:30 and arrived at Stockport at 16:00. As mentioned up-thread, she had a ticket through to Huddersfield, so actually should have changed at Manchester and arrived at HUD at 17:10. I was definitely right not to trust that option.

The train was on time at Penally but left Tenby 27 late and arrived at Swansea 17 late.
The Swansea - Paddington 11:23 service left at 12:17 and arrived Cardiff at 13:00. Mum could have travelled on to Bristol Parkway and caught the Cross Country to Manchester but there were no '10 minute reservations' available and I reckoned it would be rammed and uncomfortable for an elderly person to be squashed in for 3 hours on a 4-carriage Voyager. In any case, she had already got off at Cardiff by the time I could make contact.

RTT was showing absolutely no trains from Cardiff to Manchester until the 14:49. I had no confidence this would run (as it happened, it did - with a 2-carriage 150) so advised Mum to get the 13:57 to Crewe on the basis it was at least in the right direction. I would drive there and collect her. I had already planned to go to Stockport (see earlier) so an extra 45 mins or so was worth it for the assurance she would get to me in one piece without hanging around in sub-zero temperatures for too long.

That train was 30 late and arrived at Crewe at 17:00. Had she needed to travel on to Stockport it seems she would have got there at 18:25 on the aforementioned TfW 150... There was absolutely no way she could have made it to Huddersfield!

So, notwithstanding my 4 hour, 150 mile round trip, what delay repay can we claim for? If we keep things simple and take Crewe as the destination, she should have got there at 15:28, so was 92 mins late, but if we take HUD as the destination, who knows when she would have got there. I'd hope TPE would have taxied her over the M62.

I'd really like her to get the full ticket cost back to compensate for the disruption. Is this feasible?
At least she has got here safe, and just a little tired. Thanks all.
Pretty much feasible to claim Huddersfield as the final destination as you are doing an offer to the TOCs to minimise delay by your mean.
 

pdq

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Yet another passenger inconvenienced by the strikes.
To be fair, the signal failure and widespread knock-on around Cardiff wasn't caused by the strike, but the lack of later alternative trains, especially from MAN to HUD certainly was.
What ticket(s) did she hold (cost/type/to/from?
Penally to Huddersfield off peak return. £72.65 with senior railcard.
 

Watershed

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Sorry for the delayed response, I must have missed your post on Friday.

To be fair, the signal failure and widespread knock-on around Cardiff wasn't caused by the strike, but the lack of later alternative trains, especially from MAN to HUD certainly was.
Indeed, and so ultimately the potential stranding was still strike-induced.

Penally to Huddersfield off peak return. £72.65 with senior railcard.
It's a slightly difficult one. That ticket doesn't permit break of journey (and I think the forum ticketing site probably does enough to convey that restriction). So if being picked up at Crewe constituted a break of journey (it's unclear as there is no formal definition of the term - and the journey was ultimately still completed, even if part of it was by car) then arguably an excess fare is due.

That being said, I think it's unlikely that any of the staff that process Delay Repay claims are likely to know that some walk-up tickets have break of journey restrictions. So probably not something that needs to be worried about too much.

I suppose you could just put in a claim through to Huddersfield on the basis (as stated above) that the journey was ultimately completed, albeit partly by car. However, this might result in an overpayment, as the next train itinerary to Huddersfield may have been the next day, thus well in excess of 2 hours late - whereas presumably your mother ended up reaching Huddersfield roughly around the time she was originally due to.

The 'safe' option would be to contact TfW's customer services and explain the circumstances, asking them what to do. But they may claim that nothing is due at all, or (albeit unlikely) raise the BoJ issue above. The pragmatic option may just be to put in a DR claim to Crewe - and then if anyone raises the BoJ issue, offer to pay the excess fare (on which Delay Repay would also be payable!).
 

pdq

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Thanks. As it happens, I've submitted the claim through the automated system this morning as travelling to HUD with a >120 delay. Will see what happens. Hopefully tomorrow's return journey will be uneventful.
 

pdq

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Got the reply through today: the claim for 120+ mins on the outward and 60 mins on the return are both approved. I got 50% of the total ticket price for each claim. Is this correct? For some reason I thought it would be 100% for the outward plus 50% for the return - or is the total claim on a return journey limited to 100% of the ticket price?
 

Bletchleyite

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Got the reply through today: the claim for 120+ mins on the outward and 60 mins on the return are both approved. I got 50% of the total ticket price for each claim. Is this correct? For some reason I thought it would be 100% for the outward plus 50% for the return - or is the total claim on a return journey limited to 100% of the ticket price?

Yes. You can't Repay something you've not paid. (This was debated a while back but it is now written in the NRCoT I believe).
 

pdq

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Ah - the clue's in the title!
There was no explanation on the claim approval with the calculations. I thought the 120+ would have got 100% with the 60+ rejected, or paid at zero with an explanation.
Thanks.

It was a pretty crap journey in both directions, but at least it was free.
 

Watershed

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Yes. You can't Repay something you've not paid. (This was debated a while back but it is now written in the NRCoT I believe).
That's not really the reason though - it's got nothing to do with the name. The reason it's capped at 100% is that the NRCoT were updated to include this limit, as one of the many hamfisted and counterproductive attempts the DfT has made to limit industry costs.

Train delay compensation is determined by reference to the cost of the ticket - but that is not inherently the case. UK/EU261 flight delay compensation is a fixed sum based on the distance from the origin to the destination airports. Some people therefore stand to make a huge "profit" in the event of a delay, whilst others will receive only a tiny portion of the cost of their ticket. That's just how the system works.

It's also important to remember that the person or entity paying for the ticket may be different to the person travelling; therefore, on a strictly individual basis, the passenger might indeed receive back more money than they paid.

Coming back to the OP's question, whilst strictly speaking the outward claim ought to have been assessed at 100% and the return rejected on the basis of the maximum 100% of the cost of the ticket having been paid out, I am sure they will appreciate this is a nugatory point which doesn't warrant making an appeal.
 
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