Delay repay - eligible or not

[Craig2601]

Hello all, travelled on Avanti a few weeks ago and my train arrived into my stop +8 minutes delayed. However, there was a door fault on the train and the doors didn't open for another 7 minutes, meaning that I wasn't able to get off the train until just over 15 minutes after the scheduled arrival time. I applied for delay repay for this (which was rejected) - is it worth a further appeal, or am I not eligible?

 

[redreni]

Avanti's Passengers' Charter says:

We offer compensation after 15 minutes’ delay, no matter what caused it. The longer you’re delayed, the more you can claim up to the full cost of your journey with us. You can see how it works below. Compensation is based on the time you arrive at your destination station [...]

I would argue there is a distinction to be drawn between the time the train arrives at your destination station and the time you arrive at your destination station. Normally there would be no significant difference, but there is if they fail to open the doors for 8 minutes. Compensation is, according to the contract, based on the latter, as stated above in the Passengers' Charter.

The trouble is, they're looking at the industry data and taking the train's arrival time to be an accurate reflection of when you arrived. As such I'm not the least bit surprised your claim was rejected. It's one that needs to go via Customer Relations.

In order to persuade them your arrival at the station was delayed after the train pulled into the platform, it would help if you had evidence. For example, filming yourself exiting the train as soon as the doors were released, then getting footage of the station clock once you've disembarked, could help establish what time it was when the doors were released.

Failing that, I suppose you could put in a SAR seeking CCTV footage of yourself arriving at the station, however, they can charge a fee for responding to a SAR which might be more than the delay repay at stake. You could also speak to their Customer Relations explaining when and where this happened, and asking them to check with the station manager who may be able to verify the fault with the doors on your train.

I must say, if they're not going to compensate passengers who wait patiently and are delayed during these frustrating events, they will be lucky if people don't take the message from this that they should just pull the emergency door release and avoid the delay in the first place.

 

[SuspectUsual]

@Craig2601 which station was this at and what train and date? If it wasn't the final stop, we would expect the train running details to show an extended dwell at your station which would back up your claim. More difficult if it was the terminus of course, as normally the train wouldn't be expected to immediately depart again

 

[tumbledown]

@Craig2601 which station was this at and what train and date? If it wasn't the final stop, we would expect the train running details to show an extended dwell at your station which would back up your claim. More difficult if it was the terminus of course, as normally the train wouldn't be expected to immediately depart again

Real Time Trains might give the unit numbers, in which case the TOC should have a log of the fault.

 

[Haywain]

Hello all, travelled on Avanti a few weeks ago and my train arrived into my stop +8 minutes delayed. However, there was a door fault on the train and the doors didn't open for another 7 minutes, meaning that I wasn't able to get off the train until just over 15 minutes after the scheduled arrival time. I applied for delay repay for this (which was rejected) - is it worth a further appeal, or am I not eligible?

Of course it is, just contact their customer relations team. It would be very unusual for them not to have a record of this happening, so you really shouldn't need evidence.

 

[z444z]

I have had a delay repay appeal succeed where I provided (or offered to provide, can’t remember) video evidence that the doors were not released until a few seconds after the relevant time ticked over. It was literally just a few seconds, maybe 2 or 3.

 

[yorkie]

I would definitely appeal this; please do let us know how you get on.

 

[Craig2601]

A month later, I got my response back from Avanti:

Thank you for contacting Avanti West Coast regarding your concerns around your Delay Repay claim. I understand that although your train from Carlisle to Wigan North Western on the 02/01/2026 was delayed by 7 minutes, you could not leave the train for a further 8 minutes due to the doors not opening. Delay Repay compensation is only payable based on the intended arrival time of the train, and the actual arrival time of the train at the station. We do not compensate customers for delays such as the doors not opening, or for the time to exit the train. Therefore, we cannot award you with any Delay Repay compensation on this occasion.

I understand that this may not be the outcome that you were hoping for but if you have any other concerns, please do not hesitate to get back in touch with us. Thank you for contacting Avanti West Coast and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just out of interest how much did the ticket cost? I'll be amused to see how little money is at stake. It'll be less than the value of the correspondence that getting people annoyed generates.

 

[yorkie]

To be honest, given how I know Avanti like to treat passengers, I am not surprised at all.

It's a disgrace, but entirely expected from a company of Avanti's reputation and standing, sadly.

The "I hope you have a great rest of your day" is either first-rate trolling, or evidence that the person replying is completely and utterly tone-deaf. Given the poor quality training at the company, and the lack of safeguards in place to ensure that fit and proper people are interacting with customers, either are possible, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter.

At any remotely sensible company that has any sort of care about either customer relations or it's reputation, it would consider door opening time to be the arrival time that counts, as per Germanwings GmbH v Ronny Henning (2014):

https://konsument.gov.pl/aktualnosci/arrival-time-is-the-moment-of-opening-the-aircraft-door/

The situation of passengers on a flight does not change substantially when the aircraft touches down on the runway or when the aircraft reaches its parking position, as the passengers continue to be subject, in the enclosed space in which they are sitting, to various constraints. It is only when the passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft and the order is given to that effect to open the doors of the aircraft that the passengers cease to be subject to those constraints and may in principle resume their normal activities.

Yes, I know that was an airline involved, but I do not believe the general principles are sufficiently removed to argue that the principle does not apply.

Even though the amount is small, I'd like to see this appealed, on principle!

If Avanti refuse to relent, I suggest you go to the Rail Ombudsman, again on principle, because if Avanti are so keen to reject low value claims, you can guarantee they will be denying high value claims too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just out of interest how much did the ticket cost? I'll be amused to see how little money is at stake. It'll be less than the value of the correspondence that getting people annoyed generates.

That’s the stupid thing with the TOCs, they’ll enrage people like this over a fiver. Dealing with the enraged complainants will then cost them more than that.

 

[yorkie]

That’s the stupid thing with the TOCs, they’ll enrage people like this over a fiver. Dealing with the enraged complainants will then cost them more than that.

TOCs such as Avanti know that the majority of people give up.

Furthermore, I believe there is a deep-rooted cultural problem at TOCs such as Avanti (and various others) along the lines that the default position is that customers are in the wrong and that any excuse needs to be found, to not let the customer be satisfied.

 

[redreni]

Apart from its sheer stupidity and tone-deafness as noted above, the response is also factually wrong inasmuch as it is inconsistent with Avanti's Passenger Charter, which clearly states it is the delay to you that matters (see post #2, above).

It says:

We offer compensation after 15 minutes’ delay, no matter what caused it. The longer you’re delayed, the more you can claim[...]

If it meant the delay to the train, it would say something like:

We offer compensation after 15 minutes’ delay to your train, no matter what caused it. The longer your train is delayed, the more you can claim[...]

But, of course, it wouldn't say that because that's not how delay repay works. There are circumstances where trains are severely delayed but the passenger gets no compensation because they are able to complete their journey without significant delay using late-running trains that they would normally have missed, and there are other circumstances where delay repay is payable despite the final leg of the itinerary arriving at the passenger's intended destination bang on time or early, because other disruption caused a missed connection. These people probably spend half their lives explaining to customers that it's not the delay to the train that counts, it's the delay to the passenger compared with the intended journey as per the timetable.

It is, with the greatest respect to Avanti staff, unintelligent to then write the email they've written to the OP, suggesting that when the passenger arrives is all of a sudden irrelevant in this one specific scenario.

This is, by the way, exactly what happens when politicians and SPAds start scrutinising the delay repay bill and saying it should be reduced. They're not (I presume) measuring the admin costs, only the amount paid out. So, you're going to get a lot of spurious rejections, some of which will create further aggro and higher admin costs than the claim is worth and will nevertheless have to be paid out eventually (or disguised as a "goodwill gesture" as has happened to me a couple of times lately), but most of which do cause the customer to give up in disgust and so contribute to a reduction in the amount paid out in compensation. This is then mistaken for an indication of success.

 

[The_Train]

This is just insanity. As a train company, how can you state that you have not delayed someone by keeping them held prisoner on your crap train because you can't complete a simple task like getting the doors to open. It's a running joke about the nature of Avanti staff on platforms and their abysmal attitude towards customers but this seems to be spreading to the office jobs as well. That last line is just disgusting - that would anger me to the point of wanting to visit their customer service department to tell them exactly how they make my day feel!

 

[Belperpete]

the response is also factually wrong inasmuch as it is inconsistent with Avanti's Passenger Charter, which clearly states it is the delay to you that matters (see post #2, above).

On their website, under Delay Repay, they clearly state:

The length of a delay is based on the time your train arrives at your destination compared to its scheduled arrival time

However, as you say, this is NOT what their Passengers Charter says:

If you were delayed on one of our trains, we’ll take into account the whole journey on your ticket, including connections, when calculating your compensation.

By any rationale, the time to get off the train counts as part of the journey.

Compensation is based on the time you arrive at your destination station, not from the time your train started the journey

The latter clearly states that it is the time "you" arrive and not the time of the train that is important.

If this were me, I would be appealing this, quoting their Passenger Charter.

 

[cool110]

We do not compensate customers for delays such as the doors not opening, or for the time to exit the train

Surely the only logical conclusion to make from that is that they expect you to pull the egress at the slightest hint of door opening delay.