Delay Repay dispute with GWR

[copernicium112]

I'm in a dispute with GWR over how late 1A32 BRI-PAD on Sunday 11th August was - this train was short formed and was full and standing the whole way, and was substituted for a pair of 165s vice and IET, which caused it to slowly lose time due to the lower top speed. Booked arrival time was 21.36, and we approached Paddington at 22.05. The clock ticked over to 22.06 before we entered the platform and for most of that minute we were slowly trundling down the platform, stopping at about 22.06.45. The doors of the train were released at gone 22.07 and it was nearly 22.08 by the time I managed to get off due to how busy the train was.

I claimed delay repay at 30-59 minutes but GWR is refusing to pay out at this level, insisting that the train arrived at 22.05 and was only 29 minutes late, which is plainly not true. Realtimetrains shows the train as arriving at 22.06.30, which reflects reality but apparently their internal system shows 22.05, I assume probably because it records as the train enters the final track circuit, which does not reflect reality. The only 'evidence' I have of the arrival time is a text to a friend at 22.06 saying we were trundling in and I'd be getting DR at 30 minutes.

I have appealed via Delay Repay and also raised a further complaint when that was denied, which was also denied by GWR.

Could someone advise me on the next steps to take here?

 

[Haywain]

Could someone advise me on the next steps to take here?

Ask them for a deadlock letter and take it to the Rail Ombudsman.

 

[copernicium112]

Done - when the ombudsman inevitably sides with GWR what next?

 

[Watershed]

Ask them for a deadlock letter and take it to the Rail Ombudsman.

That is certainly the 'conventional' way forward. However, for the OP's benefit it is worth noting that the Rail Ombudsman has a very poor reputation on our forum as, in our experience, it simply seems to take the train company's account of events at face value - it rarely seems to engage in any level of independent thinking. Accordingly I would expect a Rail Ombudsman case to be unsuccessful as they will likely just accept GWR's claim that the train arrived 29 minutes late.

Nevertheless, it remains the obvious option for the OP to escalate the rejection in a cost- and risk-free manner. For some TOCs, I know that asking for a letter of deadlock seems to get a complaint escalated up the 'food chain' to someone who will take a proper look at the issue, so that in itself may yield results even if the OP doesn't actually take it to the Ombudsman.

If the OP is unsuccessful at the Ombudsman, or doesn't want to waste their time taking their case there, the other option is to take GWR to Court. That would require them to admit or defend the claim fairly quickly, and if they chose to defend it they would have to produce the evidence they are relying on. However, this obviously isn't without risk and it would take quite a bit more time and effort, particularly if GWR chose to defend the claim. In my experience, most train companies fold when they receive a Court claim form, but there are never any guarantees.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is a regrettable result of TOCs not routinely authorising edge case delays. Back in my day at Virgin West Coast, the thresholds were 30 and 60 minutes (and 45 minutes for a full refund on the Wolves route). Everything above 28, 43, and 57 minutes was always rounded to the qualifying threshold. Vastly reduced workload.

 

[ikcdab]

Going a bit of topic, but I guess every passenger on the train is entitled to claim delay repay.
I guess only a few do so, and it's only those that persist and argue it was 31 mins late and not 29 that might get the payment. Not really a question, just a thought about how much money the rail companies save from people not claiming delay repay.

 

[copernicium112]

Yes, everyone on the train is entitled to Delay Repay and I'd love to know how many other people claimed at the 30 minute level. GWR has already paid out to me at the incorrect 15 minute level, so I am seeking the additional compensation to bring it up to 30 minutes, and I will also be asking for compensation for my time in chasing this up due to their poor train recording.

Is it worth submitting a Subject Access Request to Network Rail for the CCTV footage for platform 12 around 22.06? This would possibly corroborate my version of events if it shows the first passenger leaving the train at 22.07.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, everyone on the train is entitled to Delay Repay and I'd love to know how many other people claimed at the 30 minute level. GWR has already paid out to me at the incorrect 15 minute level, so I am seeking the additional compensation to bring it up to 30 minutes, and I will also be asking for compensation for my time in chasing this up due to their poor train recording.

Is it worth submitting a Subject Access Request to Network Rail for the CCTV footage for platform 12 around 22.06? This would possibly corroborate my version of events if it shows the first passenger leaving the train at 22.07.

Certainly no harm in asking, though unless you have a station clock in shot you may be reliant on CCTV system timings - which aren't always the most accurate.

I learned that to my cost once, when I requested CCTV from a station operator and they gave me the footage for the minutes I had requested, but the CCTV system clock turned out to be about 10 minutes out so the crucial bit of footage was missing. By the time I had the footage it was too late to retrieve the missing minutes.

 

[ikcdab]

I would do a FOI request on what delay repay has been paid on that train. Then you will see if any 30mins delays have been paid.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would do a FOI request on what delay repay has been paid on that train. Then you will see if any 30mins delays have been paid.

That wouldn’t tell you anything meaningful, and that is if the data is stored “per train” (it likely isn’t)

 

[Hadders]

I would do a FOI request on what delay repay has been paid on that train. Then you will see if any 30mins delays have been paid.

GWR are not subject to FoI.

 

[Honestviews]

Interesting about the timings on realtrain. Railcam has it arriving at 22:05 29.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

I'm in a dispute with GWR over how late 1A32 BRI-PAD on Sunday 11th August was - this train was short formed and was full and standing the whole way, and was substituted for a pair of 165s vice and IET, which caused it to slowly lose time due to the lower top speed. Booked arrival time was 21.36, and we approached Paddington at 22.05. The clock ticked over to 22.06 before we entered the platform and for most of that minute we were slowly trundling down the platform, stopping at about 22.06.45. The doors of the train were released at gone 22.07 and it was nearly 22.08 by the time I managed to get off due to how busy the train was.

I claimed delay repay at 30-59 minutes but GWR is refusing to pay out at this level, insisting that the train arrived at 22.05 and was only 29 minutes late, which is plainly not true. Realtimetrains shows the train as arriving at 22.06.30, which reflects reality but apparently their internal system shows 22.05, I assume probably because it records as the train enters the final track circuit, which does not reflect reality. The only 'evidence' I have of the arrival time is a text to a friend at 22.06 saying we were trundling in and I'd be getting DR at 30 minutes.

I have appealed via Delay Repay and also raised a further complaint when that was denied, which was also denied by GWR.

Could someone advise me on the next steps to take here?

Railcam has it attiving at 22:05 29.Maybe GWR are correct

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

I'm in a dispute with GWR over how late 1A32 BRI-PAD on Sunday 11th August was - this train was short formed and was full and standing the whole way, and was substituted for a pair of 165s vice and IET, which caused it to slowly lose time due to the lower top speed. Booked arrival time was 21.36, and we approached Paddington at 22.05. The clock ticked over to 22.06 before we entered the platform and for most of that minute we were slowly trundling down the platform, stopping at about 22.06.45. The doors of the train were released at gone 22.07 and it was nearly 22.08 by the time I managed to get off due to how busy the train was.

I claimed delay repay at 30-59 minutes but GWR is refusing to pay out at this level, insisting that the train arrived at 22.05 and was only 29 minutes late, which is plainly not true. Realtimetrains shows the train as arriving at 22.06.30, which reflects reality but apparently their internal system shows 22.05, I assume probably because it records as the train enters the final track circuit, which does not reflect reality. The only 'evidence' I have of the arrival time is a text to a friend at 22.06 saying we were trundling in and I'd be getting DR at 30 minutes.

I have appealed via Delay Repay and also raised a further complaint when that was denied, which was also denied by GWR.

Could someone advise me on the next steps to take here?

Ontimetrains also has it arriving at 22:05

 

[copernicium112]

I took the liberty to do a bit of research about this just to square it in my head that I wasn't making things up. The timing discrepancy appears to be unique to Platform 12 at Paddington - all the sites tally for the other platforms with no difference (Realtimetrains, Recenttraintimes etc).

Have a look at 1A06 on 17/8 into P12 - Realtime has it in at 08.55.15 (20L). Recenttraintimes has it in at 08.54 (19L). This is consistent with other late trains into P12 - if RTTs arrival time is less than the 3/4 minute, Recenttraintimes records it as the minute before - this checks out with what I had on my train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

For once the Ombudsman has done it's job (sort of). The threat of the Ombudsman was enough to make GWR pay out the other half of the delay repay