Delay Repay denied - what timings are used? (update: now resolved!)

[imtotesanon]

Hi all.

I travelled on the 1840 Virgin Trains service from Euston to Birmingham New Street on Sunday 2nd December. The train left late as we didn't have a driver due to disruption on the route, and we pulled in to New Street just over 30 minutes late (the platform signs were all reading 20:34:xx as we were moving in). Real Time Trains confirms the arrival as 20:34.5 (link).

Naturally I claimed Delay Repay, but within a few hours I had a response stating that the train was only 29 minutes late. My partner and I know this to be untrue in reality, given we couldn't get off the train until at least 20:35, but what timings/data/source would Virgin Trains be using in this case?

I have written back to them with the same observations as above, but I'm yet to receive a response.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[superalbs]

Claims are to be compared against the GBTT at the time of booking. This is the timetable that is advertised to passenges on ticket booking websites, and timetables.

Your train (here) was 30 and a half minutes late, there are no grounds to reject this claim.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi all.

I travelled on the 1840 Virgin Trains service from Euston to Birmingham New Street on Sunday 2nd December. The train left late as we didn't have a driver due to disruption on the route, and we pulled in to New Street just over 30 minutes late (the platform signs were all reading 20:34:xx as we were moving in). Real Time Trains confirms the arrival as 20:34.5 (link).

Naturally I claimed Delay Repay, but within a few hours I had a response stating that the train was only 29 minutes late. My partner and I know this to be untrue in reality, given we couldn't get off the train until at least 20:35, but what timings/data/source would Virgin Trains be using in this case?

I have written back to them with the same observations as above, but I'm yet to receive a response.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Well certainly according to RTT, the train arrived into BHM 30.5 minutes late. If the matter were ever to escalate (e.g. to the Rail Ombudsman), I would imagine RTT would be seen as a valuable and independent source, seeing as it uses open source Network Rail data.

It would be poor customer service (but entirely predictable given itit the rail industry) for Virgin to continue to reject your claim, in full knowledge of what RTT says - even if this gives a very slightly different arrival time to their own data sources.

 

[bb21]

Booked arrival 2004
Actual arrival 2033

No valid claim.

 

[bb21]

Well certainly according to RTT, the train arrived into BHM 30.5 minutes late. If the matter were ever to escalate (e.g. to the Rail Ombudsman), I would imagine RTT would be seen as a valuable and independent source, seeing as it uses open source Network Rail data.

Erm, no unfortunately.
RTT holds no water, sorry.

 

[robbeech]

This is not the first instance of this . (I haven’t checked the times myself)

I don’t suppose any TOCs fall into the following category and I wouldn’t suggest they would but if you to imagine the following scenario.

A train with 500 passengers on board arrives at its destination 30 and a half minutes late at its destination. 200 people claim. They default reject all 200 claims suggesting it was 29 minutes late.
50 people know about RTT or similar and complain with evidence of the lateness of the train.
50 people get paid on 30 minutes compensation with a stock apology for the earlier mistake.

This won’t happen of course but this kind of result may make people think that way which will not be good for their reputation.

 

[Llanigraham]

Claims are to be compared against the GBTT at the time of booking. This is the timetable that is advertised to passenges on ticket booking websites, and timetables.

Your train (here) was 30 and a half minutes late, there are no grounds to reject this claim.

Are you sure about that?
As far as I can see that shows it arrived at New St 21 late.

Birmingham New Street [BHM]

6 2004 2016 2004 2015 2034½ 2037½ 21L DST DST""

 

[imtotesanon]

Booked arrival 2004
Actual arrival 2033

No valid claim.

Thanks, where are these times from? I was assuming there'd be another source of data (even if it's totally incorrect!)

 

[Chris Butler]

Booked arrival 2004
Actual arrival 2033

No valid claim.

That's a very definitive response, but with no explanation as to the data source. What is the source ? Why is it more accurate than RTT or (it was said) the station clock ?

My experience (which is not extensive) is that RTT arrival times are a little earlier than actual arrival times. I have always assumed that that is because the RTT was driven by the entry to the platform's track circuit, but I have no real basis for that assumption.

 

[_toommm_]

That's a very definitive response, but with no explanation as to the data source. What is the source ? Why is it more accurate than RTT or (it was said) the station clock ?

My experience (which is not extensive) is that RTT arrival times are a little earlier than actual arrival times. I have always assumed that that is because the RTT was driven by the entry to the platform's track circuit, but I have no real basis for that assumption.

Its not a case of accuracy, it's a case of you looking at the Working Timetable (WTT) which is what staff observe, but the delay repay is based off the public facing Great British Timetable (GBTT)

 

[Ianno87]

That's a very definitive response, but with no explanation as to the data source. What is the source ? Why is it more accurate than RTT or (it was said) the station clock ?

My experience (which is not extensive) is that RTT arrival times are a little earlier than actual arrival times. I have always assumed that that is because the RTT was driven by the entry to the platform's track circuit, but I have no real basis for that assumption.

RTT is driven by the train's headcode stepping into the Platform's signal berth.

TRUST (that Delay Repay will be measured off) is done on the same principle, except a "berthing offset" is added to reflect the time between the headcode stepping and the train actually stopping in the platform.

RTT might do similar where known, but may not apply the "official" offset.

 

[bb21]

That's a very definitive response, but with no explanation as to the data source. What is the source ? Why is it more accurate than RTT or (it was said) the station clock ?

Data source is TRUST, the definitive industry punctuality data bank.

TRUST is not 100% infallible, but it is what is used as the benchmark.

The only possible line of challenge is to ask Virgin to review any onboard data recorder they may have. There is no guarantee such data is available.

No ombudsman or regulator will take RTT data, an unofficial enthusiast site, over TRUST data, which is regularly recalibrated.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Erm, no unfortunately.
RTT holds no water, sorry.

You can keep on saying that until the cows come home - bit at the end of the day, a totally independent and unbiased website that uses Network Rail's own data is always going to hold weight, in the mind of a Rail Ombudsman or a Court judge, against a TOC's internal records - as the TOC has an incentive to claim things like '29 minutes late' in cases like these (even if that is simply what their internal data says).

 

[MikeWh]

Are you sure about that?
As far as I can see that shows it arrived at New St 21 late.

No, it shows that it departed New Street 21 minutes late. It has 12 minutes rest there.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Booked arrival 2004
Actual arrival 2033

No valid claim.

Is that the time the doors were released? There can sometimes be a not inconsiderable delay between the train stopping and the doors being released - obviously more so on services where the doors are guard operated and they are just trying to get to the door release panel, or in the middle of selling a ticket - but it can, and does, still happen on a Pendolino.

 

[Chris Butler]

Its not a case of accuracy, it's a case of you looking at the Working Timetable (WTT) which is what staff observe, but the delay repay is based off the public facing Great British Timetable (GBTT)

Not in this case. In this case the public and working TT times are the same. It's the actual arrival times that are different, not the timetabled times.

 

[bb21]

You can keep on saying that until the cows come home - bit at the end of the day, a totally independent and unbiased website that uses Network Rail's own data is always going to hold weight, in the mind of a Rail Ombudsman or a Court judge, against a TOC's internal records - as the TOC has an incentive to claim things like '29 minutes late' in cases like these (even if that is simply what their internal data says).

TRUST data is not TOC internal data. It is the official industry dataset.

 

[bb21]

Is that the time the doors were released? There can sometimes be a not inconsiderable delay between the train stopping and the doors being released - obviously more so on services where the doors are guard operated and they are just trying to get to the door release panel, or in the middle of selling a ticket - but it can, and does, still happen on a Pendolino.

What?

Arrival time is wheel stop as I have repeatedly said before. If you have a problem with that then lobby the government to change the rules.

Or do as you preach and initiate a test case.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry, but whilst that

What?

Arrival time is wheel stop as I have repeatedly said before. If you have a problem with that then lobby the government to change the rules.

Sorry, but whilst wheel stop time may be the time the rail industry uses for its internal statistics, it has no relevance to delay compensation for passengers. It doesn't matter where the train is sat - arrival time is when the doors are released. Exactly this same principle has been litigated on by the airlines in relation to flight delay compensation, and the European Court of Justice ruled that the arrival time of the aircraft at the gate did not matter - it was the time that the doors opened. This meant that any delay in opening the doors meant 'arrival' had not yet happened. It would, frankly, be nonsensical to have it any other way.

 

[Chris Butler]

RTT is driven by the train's headcode stepping into the Platform's signal berth.

TRUST (that Delay Repay will be measured off) is done on the same principle, except a "berthing offset" is added to reflect the time between the headcode stepping and the train actually stopping in the platform.

RTT might do similar where known, but may not apply the "official" offset.

Yes, that's what I assumed about RTT. I still can't understand why RTT says it arrived at 20:34½, the station clock says 20:34:xx and TRUST 20:33.

 

[superalbs]

Are you sure about that?
As far as I can see that shows it arrived at New St 21 late.

It left 21L.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

TRUST data is not TOC internal data. It is the official industry dataset.

A claim for delay compensation is a civil matter (if it were ever to proceed to Court). Therefore the standard of evidence required for the claimant (our passenger) to succeed, is 'on the balance of probabilities'. If the train company's own records show that the train was 29 minutes late, and another, independent website says that it was 30 minutes late, I think it would be very unusual for that not to be found in favour of the passenger. The train operator has a vested interest in minimising delays and thus their data is less likely to be seen as trustworthy (ha!), compared to an independent site.

This is, of course, not to mention our passenger's witness testimony that the station clock read :34, which could also prove valuable evidence.

You are approaching it from the angle of the industry, and their policies and procedures, and not the angle of the passenger and their rights in law.

 

[Chris Butler]

Sorry, but whilst wheel stop time may be the time the rail industry uses for its internal statistics, it has no relevance to delay compensation for passengers.

Absolutely right. TRUST and wheel stop are not decisive. Exactly as you say the actual time in the real world and the passengers being able to leave the train (or, at least, the first of them) is what matters.

 

[bb21]

Sorry, but whilst that

Sorry, but whilst wheel stop time may be the time the rail industry uses for its internal statistics, it has no relevance to delay compensation for passengers. It doesn't matter where the train is sat - arrival time is when the doors are released. Exactly this same principle has been litigated on by the airlines in relation to flight delay compensation, and the European Court of Justice ruled that the arrival time of the aircraft at the gate did not matter - it was the time that the doors opened. This meant that any delay in opening the doors meant 'arrival' had not yet happened. It would, frankly, be nonsensical to have it any other way.

Good, in that case do as you preach and put your own money where your mouth is and initiate a test case as you should have no problem winning that.

Until then you should not be misleading people that a long-established and accepted metric is wrong, potentially wasting other people's time and money.

 

[imtotesanon]

Hi all,

I heard back from VT on Fri 21st, reiterating their rejection of my claim on the grounds that the train was only 29 minutes late. The email advised me to contact their Customer Resolutions team via live chat to discuss further, which I did; the gentleman on the other side of the screen understood that the train was indeed late from the RTT details, and promised to re-investigate the claim. To my surprise, on Monday I had an email confirming they had accepted the claim and the delay repay compensation arrived the same day.

It seems that Virgin's Customer Resolutions team are the ones to talk to in cases like this, though you can't actually talk to them other than via live chat.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all,

I heard back from VT on Fri 21st, reiterating their rejection of my claim on the grounds that the train was only 29 minutes late. The email advised me to contact their Customer Resolutions team via live chat to discuss further, which I did; the gentleman on the other side of the screen understood that the train was indeed late from the RTT details, and promised to re-investigate the claim. To my surprise, on Monday I had an email confirming they had accepted the claim and the delay repay compensation arrived the same day.

It seems that Virgin's Customer Resolutions team are the ones to talk to in cases like this, though you can't actually talk to them other than via live chat.

Thanks for the update.

It is good to hear the company acted correctly in the end.

If anyone else is denied a valid claim when a train company claims it wasn't, the best thing to do is pester them. If enough people challenge these decisions, train companies will learn that it will be cheaper for them to pay up in the first place.

 

[30907]

Absolutely right. TRUST and wheel stop are not decisive. Exactly as you say the actual time in the real world and the passengers being able to leave the train (or, at least, the first of them) is what matters.

Good that this has been resolved in the passenger's favour.
However, the argument about wheel stop vs door release is irrelevant, as the difference between the two is not affected by the lateness of the train. (There are seemingly random variations, but these are just as likely to occur if a train is on time as if it is late).
It would be very unusual for a train to wait 5, 10, 15 minutes for doors to be released, as happens at airports, but if that were the case I agree that should be taken into account for delay repay - it would surely show up in Incident records!

 

[yorkie]

Good that this has been resolved in the passenger's favour.
However, the argument about wheel stop vs door release is irrelevant, as the difference between the two is not affected by the lateness of the train. (There are seemingly random variations, but these are just as likely to occur if a train is on time as if it is late).
It would be very unusual for a train to wait 5, 10, 15 minutes for doors to be released, as happens at airports, but if that were the case I agree that should be taken into account for delay repay - it would surely show up in Incident records!

I'd argue that in most cases where train companies claim a delay was "only" 14/29/59 minutes, the train was actually later than the qualifying amount right up until the point at which it was deemed to have arrived, and then suddenly made up time, because they are using inappropriate/inaccurate anti-customer measurements (whether deliberately or not!)

 

[Chris Butler]

Good that this has been resolved in the passenger's favour.
However, the argument about wheel stop vs door release is irrelevant, as the difference between the two is not affected by the lateness of the train. (There are seemingly random variations, but these are just as likely to occur if a train is on time as if it is late).
It would be very unusual for a train to wait 5, 10, 15 minutes for doors to be released, as happens at airports, but if that were the case I agree that should be taken into account for delay repay - it would surely show up in Incident records!

I'm not sure what point you are making. The point made by another poster, and to which I agreed, is that, in law, the only question is at what time the doors could be opened. It is that that determines the actual arrival time.

 

[_toommm_]

The argument about 'arrival time' is one I've argued a lot with a certain TOC - there's obviously no use me arriving into a station if the train is coupling up to another train and I'm not being allowed to make my connection. It may be handy to take a photo of when you actually step onto the platform, as surely arrival time means two different things to a TOC and to a passenger.