Egg Centric
Established Member
Only the third section (Leeds - London - the bit they paid out on) was delayed. They've put 151 minutes which sounds about right (there had been someone under a train in Peterborough area).
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Delay Repay claims rejected
- Thread starter yorkie
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Only the third section (Leeds - London - the bit they paid out on) was delayed. They've put 151 minutes which sounds about right (there had been someone under a train in Peterborough area).
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R
RailUK Forums
Not so much a delay repay rejected however I am having a weird experience with Northern currently.
Delay repay was approved and then put back into “In Progress” on ringing them they told me that anything sent to PayIt had to be sent to accounts which is where the delay lies and I should wait around a week and if no movement, ring back.
Delay repay was approved and then put back into “In Progress” on ringing them they told me that anything sent to PayIt had to be sent to accounts which is where the delay lies and I should wait around a week and if no movement, ring back.
D1537
Established Member
Yes, they should be paying out for the whole journey. However quite often split ticket claims end up like yours in that the company only pays out for the delayed part. If you appeal you should normally get the rest when a human looks at it. Post #4 in the linked thread has the advice to staff.
Linky
I've had my share of Delay Repay problems, but I haven't had trouble with split tickets. Even when one of the tickets was a mobile multiflex ticket (used with ticket acceptance on a service bus, just to make it more complicated).
Regarding this claim...the automated system reminded me to 'update my journey information' with no other options (i.e. a simple appeal textbox)
So I 'updated' the claim to reset the clock a bit but didn't change anything at all - my claim still didn't quite match my ticket and in the meantime fired off an email to enquiries@northernrailway.co.uk
They replied
'Upon reviewing the claim, I can confirm the claim was declined as the origin station did not match the origin station on your tickets, In order for you to be compensated the tickets would need to match the journey details.
However, due to a backlog of processing the claim, the claim was approved already for the delay of 31 minutes resulting in the compensation of one complimentary Northern ticket. This decision was processed yesterday, therefore please allow up to 10 working days for you to receive the compensation in the post.'
So I got my claim approved at the end of it all but their response makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Provided your ticket permits break of journey, the origin/destination don't have to match. You can make a short journey on a ticket where BoJ is permitted and claim DR for it. Indeed claiming for something you didn't do would be fraudulent.
If the ticket didn't permit BoJ then no valid ticket was held so no claim can be made.
If the ticket didn't permit BoJ then no valid ticket was held so no claim can be made.
Had one today rejected by GWR "We are unable to find a timetabled journey that matches your claim". I double checked and the details I submitted *exactly* match the eticket that was submitted. So how can they not find the trains printed on the tickets which they issued! I have appealed but it just smacks of turn down legitimate claims in the hope you just give up.
I believe the automated software used by most TOCs uses a different journey planner to that used by ticket issuing systems. Indeed I'm sure I had, some years ago, one claim rejected because the alternative journey I should have used (due to a cancellation) was both not a permitted route for flexible tickets (my journey was Euston - Manchester - Darlington, and it said I should have done Euston - Liverpool - Darlington) and certainly not permitted on the APs I held!
As always the automated systems are fine if your journey is very simple (ideally involving one train but certainly no more than one change) and no more than one or maybe two tickets. As soon as it gets even slightly more complicated they fall over in often ludicrous ways. I imagine that you're claim will be approved on appeal without much difficult. My example above was.
Indeed many automated systems take no account of the routeing guide. I was once delayed at Doncaster on a trip to Edinburgh and the LNER response was it assumed I would go back to Sheffield and then up via Leeds.
This isn’t permitted, it would be a double back, the train they assumed I caught didn’t even run, even if it had run it would have fouled the minimum connection time at Sheffield, the train from Sheffield also didn’t run (started short at York).
This reminds me of the time that Northern (for almost a year it’s worth pointing out) were using timetable data instead of running data to calculate alternatives.
This isn’t permitted, it would be a double back, the train they assumed I caught didn’t even run, even if it had run it would have fouled the minimum connection time at Sheffield, the train from Sheffield also didn’t run (started short at York).
This reminds me of the time that Northern (for almost a year it’s worth pointing out) were using timetable data instead of running data to calculate alternatives.
Brent Goose
Member
There seems to be something off in the timing into Brighton from the West Coastway.
Its not uncommon the train still coming into the platform at 15/30 minutes late but the the claims get rejected or downgraded to the lower threshold. The timings on RTT support their adjustments (e.g. 14 1/2 late) so it seems the system underestimates how long it takes to actually stop at the platform.
Its not uncommon the train still coming into the platform at 15/30 minutes late but the the claims get rejected or downgraded to the lower threshold. The timings on RTT support their adjustments (e.g. 14 1/2 late) so it seems the system underestimates how long it takes to actually stop at the platform.
The thing is, if trains routinely arrive "early" due to timetable padding or just incorrect timings, then the delay, defined as difference between recorded arrival time and the time which would have been recorded for the previous train if it ran without delay, is still 30 minutes for trains running 30 minutes apart.
Now we know that's not how the railway chooses to define delay - instead they compare apples and oranges - actual arrival time vs nominal timetabled time. But somehow I've yet to see a TOC explicitly explain that in the information on Delay Repay. It's only after you put in the claim they waffle on about standard industry procedures (i.e. it's not just us - we're all cheating like this).
If the way the railway does it is so reasonable, why not explain it up front? I don't think it's exactly obvious otherwise - I think most people would expect to get paid for 30 minutes if they miss a connection and the next train runs exactly 30 minutes later.
(On the whole I think the whole Delay Repay scheme is insanely generous - but that doesn't mean I like the way they fiddle things).
Brent Goose
Member
Suffered the 'only' 29 minutes late on more than one occasion when a train on a half hourly service has been cancelled.
When I used to commute into London with an all zones travel card the amount even for a 15 minute delay was a reasonable one but now its along the Coastway a 30 to 59 minute delay on a weekly season nets me £3.80 or thereabouts.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
WMT gave me that one. I appealed with a slightly more diplomatic version of "don't take the mick", and they paid it.
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
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- 24,479
That isn't how the delay, for DR purposes is defined - it is the difference between the scheduled arrival time and the actual (recorded) arrival time. How else could the late arrival of a train that is actually running be calculated?
Brent Goose
Member
With £1.80 at stake I decided not to bother!
Where I have had to enter into correspondence is when they apply 20/20 hindsight on which train is going to leave first when there are a number of delayed trains at the platforms or when other services overtake a faulty train before its officially taken out of service.
Isn't that what I said in the next paragraph?
We're not talking about a train arriving late. We're talking about on time arrivals (which the railway is pretending are early) where somebody is on a later train than they should have been.
In such cases and where the arrival time is early by the industry definition the delay could be based on the difference betwen timetabled arrival times of the two trains which would give the delay that I think most people would expect.
But as I say, if they're doing it their way and it's entirely reasonable, why not be up front about it and explain that if you miss a connection and the next one is an hour later then you might only get paid for 30 minutes?
Edit: Or they could compare actual arrival time with the arrival time that would actually happen in the case of no delays, i.e. use the working not passenger timetable and strip out any timing allowances.
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Kite159
Veteran Member
Hence, why they should change the threshold to be 14-29-59 minutes but advertised as 15-30-60 minutes. To cater for the times when trains routinely arrive earlier than timetable for various reasons (i.e. has a performance allowance built into the timetable to cover for a hill)
PG
Established Member
I'm sorry - What?!! Do we seriously use performance allowance to cover for not getting a sufficient head-of-steam to get up hills?
Timetable allowances can be more than a minute. And padding in the passenger timetable times even more.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Northern like to reject my delay repay requests with my season ticket saying something to the effect of "send us a ticket not the e-mail receipt" when it's an in-app season ticket, there literally is no ticket, they only exist for three hours (and they specifically state they don't want a screenshot of the ticket, they want a booking receipt or the PDF (which doesn't exist for an e-season ticket)).
I usually re-submit the exact same details and ticket and it usually gets approved.
If it gets rejected again I appeal it with something more wordy but the same message as
"It's a season ticket, the tickets only exist in the app for a short time, the only ticket number is the booking receipt".
One time (the only rejection I've not appealed) was with a claim for a rail replacement bus which they continuously insisted was on time (it ran 32 minutes late).
I got it accepted for an almost identical RRB for my bus home the same day, both were submitted at the same time, appealed at the same time with the same message, one got accepted, one didn't.
I guess different humans must have dealt with it.
I could have appealed again with an actual email, but for under £1, it just wasn't worth it.
I usually re-submit the exact same details and ticket and it usually gets approved.
If it gets rejected again I appeal it with something more wordy but the same message as
"It's a season ticket, the tickets only exist in the app for a short time, the only ticket number is the booking receipt".
One time (the only rejection I've not appealed) was with a claim for a rail replacement bus which they continuously insisted was on time (it ran 32 minutes late).
I got it accepted for an almost identical RRB for my bus home the same day, both were submitted at the same time, appealed at the same time with the same message, one got accepted, one didn't.
I guess different humans must have dealt with it.
I could have appealed again with an actual email, but for under £1, it just wasn't worth it.
Doesn't Trainline (and its third party derived apps) offer an option to generate a delay repay barcode for the season, though?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
I can't seem to find a way to do that, and it would probably be more effort regardless.
They also directly state that the booking receipt is valid info but still reject it (I can't imagine it's automated because otherwise why does it take like a week).
Yeah this is a perennial issue which I've made multiple complaints about to Northern. Each complaint seems to cause the situation to improve for a little while before they start rejecting the claims wrongly again (as you note, their own sodding form clearly says a booking confirmation is sufficient). An appeal without changing anything usually works. But this has been going on for several years. No sign of a permanent fix.
Northern's version of Trainline's booking engine certainly doesn't.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Fortunately, it's only a few clicks to do so, the hardest part is remembering to do it!
philthetube
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Jan 2016
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- 4,159
These do exist, sometimes needed sometimes not) Rickmansworth Amersham, Chiltern, 13 mins N/B 12 S/BI'm sorry - What?!! Do we seriously use performance allowance to cover for not getting a sufficient head-of-steam to get up hills?
Just to offset the balance, I submitted online through LNER's portal last night, using an eTicket. The system recognised the train I'd been booked on had been cancelled, and offered me the choice of the two following LNER services (including one which had an SSO to serve me), and then auto-approved the claim - not even a manual review.
Now just to await payment.
Now just to await payment.
I had one from 04.12.04 rejected:
Train is going from platform 1.
Changed to platform 2 just as it is due to arrive
Everyone goes upstairs, across the divide and down to the other platform
In the meantime the train is moved to platform 6, and departed without all of us!
Delay repay submitted and rejected because the train was actually only a few minutes late
Appeal submitted with an explanation
Appeal rejected because the train was on time. Can only guess the person handling the workflow didn't bother to read the appeal reason. Yes, the train was vaguely on time, but that was not the issue
Raised a customer services complaint. Response was to use Delay Repay as they don't deal with delays
Replied to that with a little more robust explanation of what happened and pointed out that Delay Repay doesn't cover these matters because its automated
Response: Please use Delay Repay
Sent another, fairly brutal email explaining that this was not difficult and could they please read the actual text rather than guess or, I assume just try to keep to their KPI's for making people go away
Response: Please use Delay Repay (clearly cut & paste emails as when I compare them they are identical wording)
So I called them. They look at the notes, and I assume there is a system that shows them platform changes (?). Claim approved.
It really should not be so difficult.
Train is going from platform 1.
Changed to platform 2 just as it is due to arrive
Everyone goes upstairs, across the divide and down to the other platform
In the meantime the train is moved to platform 6, and departed without all of us!
Delay repay submitted and rejected because the train was actually only a few minutes late
Appeal submitted with an explanation
Appeal rejected because the train was on time. Can only guess the person handling the workflow didn't bother to read the appeal reason. Yes, the train was vaguely on time, but that was not the issue
Raised a customer services complaint. Response was to use Delay Repay as they don't deal with delays
Replied to that with a little more robust explanation of what happened and pointed out that Delay Repay doesn't cover these matters because its automated
Response: Please use Delay Repay
Sent another, fairly brutal email explaining that this was not difficult and could they please read the actual text rather than guess or, I assume just try to keep to their KPI's for making people go away
Response: Please use Delay Repay (clearly cut & paste emails as when I compare them they are identical wording)
So I called them. They look at the notes, and I assume there is a system that shows them platform changes (?). Claim approved.
It really should not be so difficult.
I would be asking for additional compensation for wasting your time with nonsensical rejections and unnecessary appeals. No strict legal entitlement to it, of course, but shy bairns get nowt...
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