Delay Repay claim where both Tocs were late

[Mojo]

A ticket was held with an itinerary on LNER with a 20 minute connection onto Transpennine.

The LNER was 50 minutes late arriving at the interchange station which ordinarily would have meant the connection onto Transpennine was missed, meaning an over two hour delay to the destination. However the Transpennine train was 35 minutes late which meant the connection was made. Would the claim for the 35 minute delay go to Transpennine, or LNER?

 

[Parallel]

I'd have said TPE, as had the LNER been on time, you still would've ended up 35 minutes late. Had the TPE been on time and the connection missed, I would've claimed from LNER.

 

[Watershed]

A ticket was held with an itinerary on LNER with a 20 minute connection onto Transpennine.

The LNER was 50 minutes late arriving at the interchange station which ordinarily would have meant the connection onto Transpennine was missed, meaning an over two hour delay to the destination. However the Transpennine train was 35 minutes late which meant the connection was made. Would the claim for the 35 minute delay go to Transpennine, or LNER?

Others might disagree, but in the circumstances I would have said the claim should go to TPE. LNER didn't cause the journey to become delayed as, despite their train's late-running, the connection was still made. The only exception would be if the passenger wouldn't have been delayed as long if they had they been at their interchange station on time - for instance, if they'd have been able to make a "negative" connection by catching a late-running connecting train.

 

[miklcct]

I would claim from LNER for this journey.

The rules is that you claim from the first TOC which causes your delay. LNER delayed you to the extent that you failed to reach the interchange station on time to catch the TPE train as scheduled, which would meant that if you were on time, you would not suffered a delay at all by catching a TPE train at the booked time, no matter if that TPE train was the booked train or another TPE train which happened to depart at that time.

The fact that your booked TPE train was delayed was immaterial here as if you weren't delayed by LNER, you would have likely caught another TPE train which ran on the same route instead of your booked train.

 

[miklcct]

In the past I also submitted similar claims to the second TOC which ended up getting rejected as the system thought that I wouldn't have made the connection, but I appealed as I did arrive the interchange station on time to make the connection. It was a journey from Southeastern to Thameslink which the connection was fouled by the initial Southeastern delay, but the fouled connection time was still positive (9 minutes). The subsequent Thameslink train was also delayed as well but because I did make the 9-minute connection and arrived the Thameslink platform at good time, I appealed the rejection specifying that I was already at the platform at the scheduled time and got the compensation after appeal.

 

[Haywain]

Would the claim for the 35 minute delay go to Transpennine, or LNER?

LNER - you'd have been late if TPE had been on yime or cancelled and the delay might have prevented you getting an earlier late-running TPE train.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Agree that it's LNER. My understanding is that there's meant to be one easy to understand rule about who to claim from: that rule is 'the first company that delays you'.

In this specific case, that means that LNER will have to pay out when it might be argued that TPE were more at fault - but there will probably be times when the blame lies the other way. It's rough justice, but the cost savings from administering a simple if rough rule probably outweigh getting it more precisely right.

 

[Merseysider]

I'd have said TPE, as had the LNER been on time, you still would've ended up 35 minutes late. Had the TPE been on time and the connection missed, I would've claimed from LNER.

I’d agree with this.

I have no idea if it’s “officially” correct, but your through journey ended up late due to TPE running late, and would’ve done whether or not LNER were on time.

 

[Hadders]

I would say TPE because even though LNER was late the connection was made.

I suspect if you claim from TPE they will say it should be LNER, and if you claim from LNER thay will say it should go to TPE...

 

[Cantab26]

A ticket was held with an itinerary on LNER with a 20 minute connection onto Transpennine.

The LNER was 50 minutes late arriving at the interchange station which ordinarily would have meant the connection onto Transpennine was missed, meaning an over two hour delay to the destination. However the Transpennine train was 35 minutes late which meant the connection was made. Would the claim for the 35 minute delay go to Transpennine, or LNER?

What is the minimum connection time for the interchange station?

 

[Mojo]

What is the minimum connection time for the interchange station?

7 minutes. It wouldn’t have been possible to make the revised connection officially but it was in practice.

 

[Cantab26]

7 minutes. It wouldn’t have been possible to make the revised connection officially but it was in practice.

In that case I would put in the claim to LNER on the basis that their train was late and (even though the connection was made due to the late-running of the TPE service) there was less than the minimum connection time available at the interchange as a result, but only claiming for the 35mins delay to the overall journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree that it's LNER. My understanding is that there's meant to be one easy to understand rule about who to claim from: that rule is 'the first company that delays you'.

The first TOC that delays you such that there is an impact on the arrival time at the ticketed destination. This one is messy but I would say TPE.

 

[Benjwri]

7 minutes. It wouldn’t have been possible to make the revised connection officially but it was in practice.

Would definitely claim LNER then, you may find you get a nice bonus from it. In this kind of case in the past I’ve claimed honestly, admitting I caught a train I shouldn’t have been able to make using minimum connection time and GWR bumped up my claim and gave me compensation as if I followed minimum connection time.

 

[island]

I'd say FTPE as they were the TOC that "made you late" – whilst both TOCs have some responsibility, these claims tend to even out in the long ring.

 

[Mojo]

Update - LNER rejected the claim and forwarded on to Transpennine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

Update 03/01 - Unsurprisingly, Transpennine have declined the claim and said LNER have to pay.

 

[Watershed]

Update - LNER rejected the claim and forwarded on to Transpennine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

Update 03/01 - Unsurprisingly, Transpennine have declined the claim and said LNER have to pay.

No surprise there - this is a common occurrence unfortunately. I'd contact both TOCs on social media to ask them to bang their heads together and sort it out. If you don't get a resolution quickly that way, then raise a complaint so that you can at least get the ball rolling on taking them both to the Ombudsman.

The Ombudsman is notoriously useless, but you'd like to hope that a very simple case like this wouldn't be beyond their abilities.

 

[Hadders]

Update - LNER rejected the claim and forwarded on to Transpennine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

Update 03/01 - Unsurprisingly, Transpennine have declined the claim and said LNER have to pay.

As I predicted then!