Delay Repay - Arriva Trains Wales

[me123]

Looking for some advice before I submit a delay repay claim and a very strongly worded letter of complaint to Arriva Trains Wales.

Last night, I was travelling from London to Prestatyn on the last service up from London - i.e. take the 19:40 Virgin service to Crewe, and change onto ATW services to Chester (21:36) and thence onto North Wales (22:36). I had booked my tickets in March (from Virgin West Coast) and collected them a few days ago in person at Prestatyn station, without issue or comment form the ticket office clerk. I had no further communication from Virgin Trains regarding my service, and had no reason to assume that there would be any problems. I was travelling on an Off-Peak single fare, with seat reservations only on the London-Crewe portion.

So I got on the Manchester train at 19:40. When my ticket was checked, the very helpful guard with a seemingly encyclopaedic knowledge of connecting rail services reminded me of my need to change at Crewe and Chester, and that it's the last service of the night so make sure not to miss it.

Got off the train at Crewe, and the departure board seemed oddly bereft of services to Chester, which was surprising because I had expected to catch a train. All the departure boards were the same, and ATW were notable in their absence. Quite a few of us now looking very lost and, as you do, realised that we're all looking for the Chester train. We eventually find a man from Virgin Trains who informs us that there's no service to Crewe tonight. It turns out that most services in North Wales have been cancelled to provide extra rolling stock for the football match in Cardiff! Initially, he refused to help us saying that it's all Arriva's fault but after a firm reminder of the National Rail Conditions of Travel and looking at a few of our itineraries he eventually got a taxi arranged by ATW control. (There was a poorly advertised replacement bus service as far as Chester only, but those of us for North Wales were obviously quite wary that we'd get to Chester at midnight to find no staff).

In the end, I was only 45 minutes late in arriving (mostly because the taxi driver seemed to be under the impression that speed limits were optional). I was very pleased to see that the taxi fare was well over £100.

Obviously, ATW have clearly failed to inform most of their passengers that services would be cancelled. Quite a lot of us had booked tickets to North Wales in advance, and it appears that the services were only cancelled in the last few weeks (despite them presumably knowing about the match much further in advance). There is actually no mention of disruption in North Wales the front page of the ATW website, although if you go to the ATW website there is a link to "Champions League Final, 3 June - click here for service changes", and it seems to be only when you click on that link that they bother to inform you that North Wales is affected.

Evening services across the whole of the Arriva Wales Trains Wales Network (North and South) will be amended so please check your journey.

I'm obviously livid with ATW, but I'm also a bit annoyed that the Virgin staff actually refused to help us until I started quoting the NRCoT at them!

My questions:

1) I am obviously entitled to delay repay at 50%. (I very much hope a full refund is forthcoming). Given that I expect ATW to say that I should have checked their website before travelling, is there anything particularly I should say to ensure that my claim is processed? I'll attach a copy of the itinerary which clearly states that the trains were running at the time of booking, but is there anything else that I can do?
2) Given that I bought a ticket from the Virgin Trains website, can I confirm that it is indeed ATW who deal with the Delay Repay - common sense says it is, but I fear getting passed back and forth between them and Virgin. Is there anything written down somewhere that says this is the case?

 

[najaB]

1) I am obviously entitled to delay repay at 50%. (I very much hope a full refund is forthcoming). Given that I expect ATW to say that I should have checked their website before travelling, is there anything particularly I should say to ensure that my claim is processed? I'll attach a copy of the itinerary which clearly states that the trains were running at the time of booking, but is there anything else that I can do?

You have an itinerary saying that the train should have been running, that's all you need.

2) Given that I bought a ticket from the Virgin Trains website, can I confirm that it is indeed ATW who deal with the Delay Repay - common sense says it is, but I fear getting passed back and forth between them and Virgin. Is there anything written down somewhere that says this is the case?

Virgin Trains has no involvement in this.

 

[me123]

You have an itinerary saying that the train should have been running, that's all you need.

Brilliant.

Virgin Trains has no involvement in this.

As I well know. Actually, since posting the above, I've just found the relevant bit of the NRCoT that confirms it (on reading it previously, quite a lot of the causes are rather vague). (32.2 makes reference to the relevant train company). I fully intend to quote the NRCoT comprehensively in the letter.

FWIW, Virgin will also be getting a much less strongly worded complaint (feedback is probably the best word), as I'm not best pleased that the staff were only willing to help after I started reading the NRCoT to them. But obviously the delay repay element isn't their concern. Most customers remarkably seemed to be resigned to the fact that they wouldn't get home, and it was only a couple of us who actually pushed for them to do something!

 

[gray1404]

First thing is first, you need to complain to Virgin Trains about the response and behavior of their employee at Crewe. It is simply not acceptable for him/her to be taking an attitude that there is "not Virgin's fault its ATW" so there is nothing he can do to help. VT manage the station at Crewe so it is their duty to get the passenger sorted out. Most passengers would not know about the NRCoC and really they should not need to. To sure to include the name of the person if you have it and/or a full description of them.

Second, your delay repay claim is with ATW as it was their service not running that caused you to be late. You would claim for a delay of over 30 minutes. They may try to argue that they will not pay out because they published an amanded timetable. However, you had contract formed with the railway companies and an itinerary to back this up. I would enclose/attach a copy of my booking confirmation.

 

[me123]

First thing is first, you need to complain to Virgin Trains about the response and behavior of their employee at Crewe. It is simply not acceptable for him/her to be taking an attitude that there is "not Virgin's fault its ATW" so there is nothing he can do to help. VT manage the station at Crewe so it is their duty to get the passenger sorted out. Most passengers would not know about the NRCoC and really they should not need to. To sure to include the name of the person if you have it and/or a full description of them.

Absolutely, just about to do that just now. If I wasn't there, I reckon quite a lot of people simply wouldn't have gotten home which is very concerning. (In fact, I'm sure a lot of people did just walk away at first). What really grinds my gears was that everyone was so happy with Virgin Trains for booking taxis, all the while forgetting that it took them a good ten minutes to agree to do anything. I was genuinely told I'd either have to book myself into a hotel or book myself a taxi. I could have been down well over £100.

Have sent the letter to ATW. The word scathing does not go far enough, I basically tore them a new one (in a civilised manner). I actually spoke to the guy in the ticket office today in the passing to find out more information - it turns out he was only informed of the changes yesterday evening! It's been completely incompetent.

 

[gray1404]

Having been left stranded in unacceptable circumstances myself, my blood is boiling reading of your VT experience. So they did, for 10 minutes, leave you stranded having told you to get your own hotel/taxi as they were not going to do anything, with no regard whatsoever for their contractual obligations. Not to mention dreadful customer service and bad attitude. Staff with that kind of attitude and an approach that demonstrates take of ability/willingness to apply the rules should not be working in the railway industry.

Not all people are able to assert themselves like we are. Do come back to let us know what their reply is and for further assistance in taking this further if their reply is not satisfactory.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'd also contact your local AM. After all ATW were heavily lent on by the Welsh Government to make Cardiff/Wales look good over this game. I doubt very much ATW would have cancelled services elsewhere without political interference.

I was pleasantly surprised the Cambrian wasn't effected at all. I was at Shrewsbury station last evening and saw the entire ATW 150 North fleet head south in two ecs moves around 1800.

 

[me123]

I'd also contact your local AM.

Will be doing that as well (and have actually told ATW this - according to their complaints procedure you get escalated if you the incident puts the reputation of the company at risk!). In fact, I'll contact my local one (Labour) as well as probably some of the regional ones. You might see me in the Daily Post pulling a in a few days

I have to say I'm really peeved that almost all North Wales services were sacrificed because of twenty two men kicking a ball around in Cardiff - I have again made that very clear to ATW. We'll see how they respond to my complaint - I've given them plenty of food for thought.

 

[yorkie]

2) Given that I bought a ticket from the Virgin Trains website, can I confirm that it is indeed ATW who deal with the Delay Repay - common sense says it is, but I fear getting passed back and forth between them and Virgin. Is there anything written down somewhere that says this is the case?

Yes, Delay Repay is payable by ATW.

Disappointing to hear that Virgin needed 'reminding' of the relevant part of the NRCoT (of course they are familiar with the parts that suit them, funny that!), but not surprising (sadly).

 

[sheff1]

I have to say I'm really peeved that almost all North Wales services were sacrificed because of twenty two men kicking a ball around in Cardiff -

I was with you until I got to this. Disparaging remarks along those lines appear frequently. It really is not difficult to refer to a football match.

Going back to the notification of changes, I am surprised the booking clerk at Prestatyn did not know of the changes until the day. I was in North Wales the previous week and leaflets and posters were on display at all the stations I used; leaflets had also been placed on train seats on some (but not all) the trains.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I was with you until I got to this. Disparaging remarks along those lines appear frequently. It really is not difficult to refer to a football match.

Going back to the notification of changes, I am surprised the booking clerk at Prestatyn did not know of the changes until the day. I was in North Wales the previous week and leaflets and posters were on display at all the stations I used; leaflets had also been placed on train seats on some (but not all) the trains.

Were of course assuming the clerk was paying attention to what was being printed off and thinking laterally or were they simply being a human TVM?

If the OP had gone to the TVM at Prestatyn that wouldn't have said anything about the cancellations either.

 

[me123]

I was with you until I got to this. Disparaging remarks along those lines appear frequently. It really is not difficult to refer to a football match.

I think that's a pretty reasonable description of a football match. I could repeat the words "football match" about twenty times, but I'd rather give you something interesting to read.

At the end of the day, though, that is a fair description of what happened. Twenty two men kicked a ball around a field in Cardiff, and suddenly North Wales is bereft of rail services. I can't quite understand why those of us affected yesterday were the ones who had to suffer. This event has no bearing on North Wales in any way, so it's unreasonable to expect us to think that we would be affected, and it's unreasonable to deprive the region of rail services, particularly for a connection such as the last service from London (undoubtedly other journeys could also be affected).

Going back to the notification of changes, I am surprised the booking clerk at Prestatyn did not know of the changes until the day. I was in North Wales the previous week and leaflets and posters were on display at all the stations I used; leaflets had also been placed on train seats on some (but not all) the trains.

Should point out that there are two clerks here - the person who issued my ticket was different from the one I spoke to today. The clerk today said he was only informed yesterday (i.e. on the day). The clerk who issued the ticket didn't advise me that there was disruption, but even if he had known he probably wouldn't have realised that I would be affected.

Given that there were many of us at the station with itineraries to travel on the cancelled services (many booked at just a few weeks notice), and many staff clearly weren't advised of the changes, then there has been a significant failure on the part of ATW. Since I haven't used the trains in the last month or so here, I've not been at the station other than to collect my tickets, and given that I've got an itinerary for travel why would I be looking for information of disruption? In any other industry, when I make a travel plan they would contact me with the necessary changes.

ATW have had two years to plan for this. Two. Years. So they had plenty of time to make the arrangements necessary. Certainly 12 weeks ago when I was sold my ticket (and four weeks ago, when one of the other passengers was sold a ticket) they should have known that the services were not going to run and updated the timetables accordingly.

 

[yorkie]

The additional Cardiff services were necessary but they should not have been at the expense of the regular service elsewhere.

Buses and/or taxis should have been on standby at stations such as Crewe because anyone who had already bought a ticket was still entitled to travel, as per the agreed contract.

 

[me123]

The additional services were necessary but they should not have been at the expense of the regular service.

Buses and/or taxis should have been on standby at stations such as Crewe because anyone who had already bought a ticket was still entitled to travel, as per the agreed contract.

Absolutely. And, as I have pointed out to ATW (and above), they had two years notice of a major event in Cardiff. There is no reason why the revised timetable shouldn't have been in place at the time of booking.

Interestingly there was actually a replacement bus service - no one at Crewe was aware of its existence until after the taxi had been booked. It only went as far as Chester and did not connect onto any services (rail or bus) into North Wales so would have been useless for me. I'm rather relieved that I was able to get the taxi in Crewe though - I would have been concerned that no staff would have been available in Chester to arrange the onward travel at that time of night, and with my phone's battery dying by this time of the evening I may not have been able to show them the itinerary by that point.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The additional Cardiff services were necessary but they should not have been at the expense of the regular service elsewhere.

Buses and/or taxis should have been on standby at stations such as Crewe because anyone who had already bought a ticket was still entitled to travel, as per the agreed contract.

Welcome to the Cardiff centric world of the Welsh Government - scenes like at the last Rugby World Cup were to be avoided at all cost. The message is clear North Wales and the Borders don't matter. No doubt Arriva felt that saying no would jeopardize their bid to retain the franchise. Pleasing the Franchise Authority was more important than the customers....

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think that's a pretty reasonable description of a football match. I could repeat the words "football match" about twenty times, but I'd rather give you something interesting to read.

At the end of the day, though, that is a fair description of what happened. Twenty two men kicked a ball around a field in Cardiff, and suddenly North Wales is bereft of rail services. I can't quite understand why those of us affected yesterday were the ones who had to suffer. This event has no bearing on North Wales in any way, so it's unreasonable to expect us to think that we would be affected, and it's unreasonable to deprive the region of rail services, particularly for a connection such as the last service from London (undoubtedly other journeys could also be affected).



Should point out that there are two clerks here - the person who issued my ticket was different from the one I spoke to today. The clerk today said he was only informed yesterday (i.e. on the day). The clerk who issued the ticket didn't advise me that there was disruption, but even if he had known he probably wouldn't have realised that I would be affected.

Given that there were many of us at the station with itineraries to travel on the cancelled services (many booked at just a few weeks notice), and many staff clearly weren't advised of the changes, then there has been a significant failure on the part of ATW. Since I haven't used the trains in the last month or so here, I've not been at the station other than to collect my tickets, and given that I've got an itinerary for travel why would I be looking for information of disruption? In any other industry, when I make a travel plan they would contact me with the necessary changes.

ATW have had two years to plan for this. Two. Years. So they had plenty of time to make the arrangements necessary. Certainly 12 weeks ago when I was sold my ticket (and four weeks ago, when one of the other passengers was sold a ticket) they should have known that the services were not going to run and updated the timetables accordingly.

The wider point here is that as a customer you expect to be able to purchase tickets online and have a customer service presence at the station. The DfT/RDG and some TOC's don't see it like this. Moving to online buying and then closing booking offices because of this is seen as the way forward.

Collecting internet tickets from a manned station is not helpful as the staff can see their jobs being undermined in front of them. Its not surprising they've been disinterested in your tickets.

 

[me123]

Collecting internet tickets from a manned station is not helpful as the staff can see their jobs being undermined in front of them. Its not surprising they've been disinterested in your tickets.

I think you're being a bit harsh on the man issuing the tickets to be fair. He printed off a single to London with reservation Crewe to London, and a single from London with reservation London to Crewe. That was it. There was no reservation for the cancelled services, and even if he had been aware of the disruption he probably would have assumed that ticket was issued with an itinerary to travel on services that were actually running.

As has been pointed out, the TVM wouldn't have told me, nor would a member of staff in Scotland (I have collected a similar ticket from Scotland in the past).

There were a lot of failings last night, but the man who issued my ticket is most definitely not one of them. There was certainly the potential that he'd have realised the problem here, but all things considered I can't blame him for not doing so.

 

[yorkie]

The wider point here is that as a customer you expect to be able to purchase tickets online and have a customer service presence at the station. The DfT/RDG and some TOC's don't see it like this. Moving to online buying and then closing booking offices because of this is seen as the way forward.

Collecting internet tickets from a manned station is not helpful as the staff can see their jobs being undermined in front of them. Its not surprising they've been disinterested in your tickets.

But that has nothing to do with this thread; feel free to create a new one if you like... (where I will be quite happy to post my views about some people who discourage customers from using ticket offices!)

 

[gray1404]

We clearly need a system now whereby if one makes an online booking (or a booking over the telephone) they are advised, by email or text message, if any of the trains in itineraries produced when making the booking are subsequently cancelled.

This would be a good starting point. The customer could then be directed to the right channels to find and book alternative services and reservations. It is more then reasonable a customer to expect the systems to linked and for such changed to be identified and the customer informed.

 

[yorkie]

We clearly need a system now whereby if one makes an online booking (or a booking over the telephone) they are advised, by email or text message, if any of the trains in itineraries produced when making the booking are subsequently cancelled.

This would be a good starting point. The customer could then be directed to the right channels to find and book alternative services and reservations. It is more then reasonable a customer to expect the systems to linked and for such changed to be identified and the customer informed.

Or, if they choose to travel on the booked train and there is no connection available, as in this case, be re-assured that replacement road transport will be available for them.

 

[Gareth Marston]

We clearly need a system now whereby if one makes an online booking (or a booking over the telephone) they are advised, by email or text message, if any of the trains in itineraries produced when making the booking are subsequently cancelled.

This would be a good starting point. The customer could then be directed to the right channels to find and book alternative services and reservations. It is more then reasonable a customer to expect the systems to linked and for such changed to be identified and the customer informed.

Just under 4% of tickets sold are Advance Purchase ones and the % of other passengers who book seats is not high. Its not going to achieve blanket coverage. Also certain operators like Chiltern don't do seat reservations.

In this case the OP was intending to use a Class 2 connecting service between Crewe and Chester which doesn't have seat reservations. Any passengers just coming as far as Chester therefore would not have been notified. The OP may have been notified his service onward from Chester to Prestatyn (which is Class 1 and open to seat reservations) was cancelled but could have expected to get to Chester as the system wouldn't flag it up.

 

[me123]

Interestingly I did not have a reservation between Chester and Prestatyn at any point. I had assumed it was a local train (quite a few them aren't reservable) but it appears would usually come from Cardiff so you would expect reservations to have been available. My morning train to Crewe had no reservation either.

FWIW the Crewe to Chester train apparently was meant to be a class 1 service (1D65) according to RTT but was not reservable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Disappointing to hear that Virgin needed 'reminding' of the relevant part of the NRCoT

Disappointed, but not at all surprised, given an experience my ex (travelling by herself) had late at night at Preston a few years ago.

Clearly learn nothing.