Delay Repay after Long Break of Journey

[MrToad]

Hypothetical question, but based on something I experienced today.

Could I theoretically put in a claim for delay repay after breaking what was a 12 minute train journey after 8 minutes (on a train that ran to time), for around 3 hours, then completing the final 4 minutes of the train journey on a train that arrived about 25 minutes late from its scheduled time of arrival at its destination?

Not that I would even contemplate doing something as preposterous as this, but my son seems to think this may qualify for a delay-repay claim. Which then started making me wonder if this was abusing the system somehow, and might put him in some trouble if they looked into this in more detail?

Background:
We buy off-peak returns with various railcards from Havant to Portsmouth and Southsea. We get off the train at Fratton and watch the football, then as there are queues at Fratton Station Platform 1 after the match, we continue our journey to Portsmouth and Southsea (from Fratton Platform 2 or 3) and get a train back to Havant from there - which passes through Fratton. I understand this is all OK on an off-peak return as we can break our journey.

I have asked CoPilot and it seems to think I can, which I take with a complete pinch of salt.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hypothetical question, but based on something I experienced today.

Could I theoretically put in a claim for delay repay after breaking what was a 12 minute train journey after 8 minutes (on a train that ran to time), for around 3 hours, then completing the final 4 minutes of the train journey on a train that arrived about 25 minutes late from its scheduled time of arrival at its destination?

Not that I would even contemplate doing something as preposterous as this, but my son seems to think this may qualify for a delay-repay claim. Which then started making me wonder if this was abusing the system somehow, and might put him in some trouble if they looked into this in more detail?

Background:
We buy off-peak returns with various railcards from Havant to Portsmouth and Southsea. We get off the train at Fratton and watch the football, then as there are queues at Fratton Station Platform 1 after the match, we continue our journey to Portsmouth and Southsea (from Fratton Platform 2 or 3) and get a train back to Havant from there - which passes through Fratton. I understand this is all OK on an off-peak return as we can break our journey.

I have asked CoPilot and it seems to think I can, which I take with a complete pinch of salt.

CoPilot isn’t going to know the answer to this!

It depends how late you arrive back in Havant, not Portsmouth and Southsea, compared to your timetabled arrival, because this is your destination when you are boarding the second train (owing to the fact you are immediately connecting and heading to your destination of Havant). If it’s over the threshold for delay repay - 15 minutes for SWR - you can claim.

For a claim like this you would need to write to customer services to ask them to consider it because the journey is too complicated for the forms to handle and it doesn’t match the origin and destination on your ticket.

 

[Belperpete]

CoPilot isn’t going to know the answer to this!

It depends how late you arrive back in Havant, not Portsmouth and Southsea, compared to your timetabled arrival, because this is your destination when you are boarding the second train (owing to the fact you are immediately connecting and heading to your destination of Havant). If it’s over the threshold for delay repay - 15 minutes for SWR - you can claim.

By that logic, someone who travelled from Fratton to Portsmouth and returned immediately would claim for a journey from Fratton to Fratton!

As you say, the OP is entitled to put in a claim for a journey from Fratton to Havant via Portsmouth, if the OP chooses to consider that as one journey. However, it couldn't be claimed for under one ticket, as neither the outward ticket nor the return ticket, on their own, permit that journey. I think the OP would have to claim it as a split-ticket journey: a claim for a journey from Fratton to Havant, covered by ticket 1 (the outward ticket) Fratton to Portsmouth, and ticket 2 (the return ticket) Portsmouth to Havant, with the details of the two tickets entered separately. I can see various issues with the processing of such a claim, but I cannot see anything inherently wrong with it. Provided of course that the OP allowed the relevant Minimum Connection Time at Portsmouth.

Delay Repay is usually considered independently for the outward and return legs. The outward leg ends when the OP arrives at Portsmouth - it is immaterial whether the OP chooses to return immediately or later. The OP is therefore equally entitled to put in a claim for a journey starting at Fratton and ending at Portsmouth. This should be a fairly straightforward claim.

For a claim like this you would need to write to customer services to ask them to consider it because the journey is too complicated for the forms to handle and it doesn’t match the origin and destination on your ticket.

I can't speak for SWT specifically, but most TOCs' claim forms that I have used would be capable of handling such journeys. And most TOCs' claim forms allow you to enter the stations you actually travelled between, even if the form says otherwise. I regularly claim on-line for journeys where I have broken journey, started or ended short - in most cases such claims are accepted without question. Very rarely has it ever been necessary for me to go through customer services. I see no reason to over-complicate things by going straight to customer services if it is not necessary.

I suspect there is a higher likelihood of a claim for a journey Fratton to Havant via Portsmouth being initially rejected, as I doubt that this will be accepted as a valid journey by the tool used by the Delay Repay teams. However, if it is rejected, you just appeal it.

 

[AlterEgo]

As you say, the OP is entitled to put in a claim for a journey from Fratton to Havant via Portsmouth, if the OP chooses to consider that as one journey. However, it couldn't be claimed for under one ticket, as neither the outward ticket nor the return ticket, on their own, permit that journey. I think the OP would have to claim it as a split-ticket journey: a claim for a journey from Fratton to Havant, covered by ticket 1 (the outward ticket) Fratton to Portsmouth, and ticket 2 (the return ticket) Portsmouth to Havant, with the details of the two tickets entered separately.

Yes, agreed.

 

[MrToad]

Thankyou all for the responses. I have no intention of claiming it - I think it would be about 35p each, and given there is a high change of rejection and someone perhaps taking a very dim view of such frivolity. Besides the trains did did not inconvenience me in the slightest, but I was just wondering what the hypothetical situation might be, as my son and I discussed this at length on the way back (rather than vent at the football)!

For clarity, it would be the outbound Havant->Portsmouth/Southsea journey (with the break at Fratton) I would claim for, as the train I arrived in at Portsmouth/Southsea was 25 minutes late - it just happened to be the one that pulled into Fratton a couple of minutes after I made my way down to Platform 2 - if it had been on time I would have missed it but caught one about 5 minutes later. The return Portsmouth/Southsea->Havant was more or less on time.

Concerning the minimum connection time at Portsmouth and Southsea - the train from Fratton terminated at Portsmouth and Southsea in one of the low level platforms. We found the next train to Havant was the one we had just got off, so we got back on it again!

I guess also we should have exited through the ticket barriers to complete the journey, and then re-enter again through the ticket barriers using our return tickets, which may have complicated any claim.

On a more serious note, it really did show the benefit of using the train to move large number of people quickly from an easy to get to point with plenty of parking into a congested city with the minimum of fuss - lots of people around me at the football arrived late as they were stuck in the traffic. I got the 1153 from Havant and was in Fratton less than 10 minutes later - I doubt I could drive it in that time even if there was no traffic, and thats before I have to find someone to park. They really should promote what is effectively Park and Ride from Havant more widely.

 

[walkingsophie]

For a similar experience, a few months ago I used a single from March to Upper Halliford with an about 6-8 hour break of journey in Cambridge, and was delayed for over an hour due to the second and third to last trains of the day being cancelled from Vauxhall. My first claim was auto-rejected, but when I wrote an appeal explaining that I broke journey and which trains were cancelled etc, I got a full refund from SWR

 

[Haywain]

the train I arrived in at Portsmouth/Southsea was 25 minutes late - it just happened to be the one that pulled into Fratton a couple of minutes after I made my way down to Platform 2 - if it had been on time I would have missed it but caught one about 5 minutes later.

So, the train was 25 minutes late but you were not delayed at all. If anything, you arrived at Portsmouth & Southsea early?

 

[Belperpete]

Thankyou all for the responses. I have no intention of claiming it - I think it would be about 35p each, and given there is a high change of rejection and someone perhaps taking a very dim view of such frivolity. Besides the trains did did not inconvenience me in the slightest, but I was just wondering what the hypothetical situation might be, as my son and I discussed this at length on the way back (rather than vent at the football)!

For clarity, it would be the outbound Havant->Portsmouth/Southsea journey (with the break at Fratton) I would claim for, as the train I arrived in at Portsmouth/Southsea was 25 minutes late - it just happened to be the one that pulled into Fratton a couple of minutes after I made my way down to Platform 2 - if it had been on time I would have missed it but caught one about 5 minutes later. The return Portsmouth/Southsea->Havant was more or less on time.

Concerning the minimum connection time at Portsmouth and Southsea - the train from Fratton terminated at Portsmouth and Southsea in one of the low level platforms. We found the next train to Havant was the one we had just got off, so we got back on it again!

I guess also we should have exited through the ticket barriers to complete the journey, and then re-enter again through the ticket barriers using our return tickets, which may have complicated any claim.

On a more serious note, it really did show the benefit of using the train to move large number of people quickly from an easy to get to point with plenty of parking into a congested city with the minimum of fuss - lots of people around me at the football arrived late as they were stuck in the traffic. I got the 1153 from Havant and was in Fratton less than 10 minutes later - I doubt I could drive it in that time even if there was no traffic, and thats before I have to find someone to park. They really should promote what is effectively Park and Ride from Havant more widely.

With a flexible ticket, you are perfectly entitled to change your mind as to what train you catch, you don't have to travel on the train that you may have specified when you booked your ticket. So the itinerary you enter when you complete the DR form should be based on the scheduled times of the train you actually caught.

I suspect that you don't understand the importance of MCT. When submitting a DR claim, you have to submit a valid itinerary for the complete journey, based on the first train that you caught. That train will have had a scheduled arrival time into Portsmouth. For a valid itinerary, you need to have allowed the minimum specified time before the scheduled departure time of the next train that you catch. If you happen to catch an earlier train, that may be good for you, but it will invalidate your claim as it won't be a valid connection and you won't have been following a valid itinerary.

When and where your ticket was scanned and when and where you entered or exited ticket barriers are largely irrelevant to a DR claim. The system does not look for this information, as in many cases it is not available. There are all sorts of perfectly valid reasons why your ticket may not be scanned. I would only be concerned about a scan that could be used to prove that you were lying on your claim. As such, a scan showing that you only entered the station after the scheduled departure time could be problematic if for some reason they decided to investigate your claim for potential fraud.

I can well understand you not wanting to bother with the effort of claiming just 35p. But because someone in some remote service centre might take a dim view of it? Why are you bothered what they might think?