Delay protection when purchasing seperate tickets

[CptDelayRepay]

I'm looking to book a journey from Newcastle to London and can pick up a Lumo advance ticket for £15.10 however the connecting train into Newcastle from the Tyne Valley is scheduled to arrive in Newcastle at 17:39. The transfer time for Newcastle is 8 minutes and so in theory the connection is officially possible (just).

With a railcard, an off-peak single from Wylam to Newcastle is £3.30 and the Lumo ticket is £15.10, totalling £18.40. If I try to book a single ticket from Wylam to London Kings Cross however, it will offer me the above route and connections, but only as a super off-peak single for £103.75 (ouch!).

If I were to purchase both legs as individual tickets on the same booking, would I be covered in the event that the connecting Northern service was delayed causing me to miss the Lumo departure?

Booking via the LNER website allows me to select 'Show LNER only' which then offers me the 17:18 from Wylam and the 17:59 LNER rather than the 17:47 Lumo. That ends up being £48.50 for a 1st Class Advance (or £33.30 Standard) so would be the better option if the above combination wouldn't be protected by delays.

 

[yorkie]

I'd buy it as one journey on Trainsplit; you get a seat selector and clear proof that it's one journey.

You will get one PDF with all tickets on it (one ticket per page)

It's valid on the next Lumo (with hefty Delay Repay claimed from Northern) or, if there isn't one, LNER would be obliged to carry you.

 

[Haywain]

I'm looking to book a journey from Newcastle to London and can pick up a Lumo advance ticket for £15.10 however the connecting train into Newcastle from the Tyne Valley is scheduled to arrive in Newcastle at 17:39. The transfer time for Newcastle is 8 minutes and so in theory the connection is officially possible (just).

With a railcard, an off-peak single from Wylam to Newcastle is £3.30 and the Lumo ticket is £15.10, totalling £18.40. If I try to book a single ticket from Wylam to London Kings Cross however, it will offer me the above route and connections, but only as a super off-peak single for £103.75 (ouch!).

If I were to purchase both legs as individual tickets on the same booking, would I be covered in the event that the connecting Northern service was delayed causing me to miss the Lumo departure?

Booking via the LNER website allows me to select 'Show LNER only' which then offers me the 17:18 from Wylam and the 17:59 LNER rather than the 17:47 Lumo. That ends up being £48.50 for a 1st Class Advance (or £33.30 Standard) so would be the better option if the above combination wouldn't be protected by delays.

It probably depends on how long you are prepared to wait in the event if missing the connection. With tickets for LNER services the next train isn’t going to be more than half an hour away most of the time. With Lumo the wait will be a bit longer.

 

[yorkie]

In the current timetable, looking at next week, it would be a case of LNER carrying the customer as that is the last train.

(Or possibly a combination of TPE/XC/GC)

 

[island]

I agree that purchasing in one go such as on Trainsplit is better than purchasing separately. Nevertheless, I would just caution you that as you're connecting onto the last Lumo service of the day, you do run the risk that if you miss your connection you may find LNER less than willing to help – so if you wouldn't be able to stump up the £79.10 for a new LNER ticket on the day and sort out claiming it back later, then I'd suggest booking a through ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I agree that purchasing in one go such as on Trainsplit is better than purchasing separately. Nevertheless, I would just caution you that as you're connecting onto the last Lumo service of the day, you do run the risk that if you miss your connection you may find LNER less than willing to help – so if you wouldn't be able to stump up the £79.10 for a new LNER ticket on the day and sort out claiming it back later, then I'd suggest booking a through ticket.

LNER may not want to help but they'd be obliged to, under the NRCoT.

I'd definitely book it as a through journey as I could see LNER kicking up a fuss; we know what LNER can be like!

 

[island]

Of course – just cautioning the OP that being entitled to something and actually getting it in a frictionless manner are two different things. It shouldn't be that way, but it is – and some people may prefer to pay more to have a higher chance of a trouble-free day.

 

[yorkie]

Yep agreed; if LNER did refuse, then buying a new ticket from them with a credit card, seeking a refund, referring the matter to the Ombudsman and doing a chargeback if necessary (on the replacement ticket, not the original) would be a solution if LNER refuse to honour their contractual obligations.

I don't know what the chances of LNER doing the right thing are, but I would put nothing past them these days.

 

[CptDelayRepay]

Thanks all, apologies I forgot to mention that I was looking to travel on 13th April and I believe there is a later Lumo service at that point, albeit not until 21:33 and it doesn't get in to London until 01:05 which doesn't seem all that wonderful.

Since the standard price is £103, the % saving charge from splitticket ends up being quite high as well (~£5.52). May be worth going the LNER route as it's more likely I'd make the 17:59 and if not then there's another at 18:29. I can live with a 30 minute delay, not so much a 4 hour one.

 

[trover]

Yep agreed; if LNER did refuse, then buying a new ticket from them with a credit card, seeking a refund, referring the matter to the Ombudsman and doing a chargeback if necessary (on the replacement ticket, not the original) would be a solution if LNER refuse to honour their contractual obligations.

I don't know what the chances of LNER doing the right thing are, but I would put nothing past them these days.

In the case of using LNER, is obtaining ticket endorsement required?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks all, apologies I forgot to mention that I was looking to travel on 13th April and I believe there is a later Lumo service at that point, albeit not until 21:33 and it doesn't get in to London until 01:05 which doesn't seem all that wonderful.

Is King's Cross your final destination? If you are going onwards, then a further ticket to your final destination may help, especially so if the last connection would be missed by waiting.

Since the standard price is £103, the % saving charge from splitticket ends up being quite high as well (~£5.52). May be worth going the LNER route as it's more likely I'd make the 17:59 and if not then there's another at 18:29. I can live with a 30 minute delay, not so much a 4 hour one.

If your final destination is King's Cross and you are keen to minimise delay rather than anything else, then I agree you may be better off booking LNER. If you can't see the itinerary you want, Trainsplit will allow you to specify additional interchange time at Newcastle of your choice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2022 ==

In the case of using LNER, is obtaining ticket endorsement required?

That's a grey area; I would strongly recommend seeking staff advice rather than simply jumping on the train.

 

[Watershed]

In the case of using LNER, is obtaining ticket endorsement required?

If you would otherwise be stranded, then arguably no. However I think it would be wise to speak to staff (if no-one else then the Train Manager on the LNER service) to avoid any potential issues onboard.

 

[trover]

That's a grey area; I would strongly recommend seeking staff advice rather than simply jumping on the train.

I’ve had similar experience, with TOC A advance, last TOC A train cancelled. Seek endorsement from TOC B operated ticket office, refused. Spoke with TOC B conductor, ticket not valid need to buy a new one. Managed to get on the train last minute and contacted TOC B customer service for an explanation and recommendations for similar situation in the future, was responded with nonsense, such as they’re not obliged to carry me albeit I’d have been stranded. Case now with the ombudsman, still waiting for an outcome, no faith in it tho.

 

[miklcct]

Thanks all, apologies I forgot to mention that I was looking to travel on 13th April and I believe there is a later Lumo service at that point, albeit not until 21:33 and it doesn't get in to London until 01:05 which doesn't seem all that wonderful.

Since the standard price is £103, the % saving charge from splitticket ends up being quite high as well (~£5.52). May be worth going the LNER route as it's more likely I'd make the 17:59 and if not then there's another at 18:29. I can live with a 30 minute delay, not so much a 4 hour one.

Is LNER contractually obliged to carry you when the next Lumo is due in 4 hours, since,

28.2 Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

I really need a guarantee that I'll be able to take the next train on the same route regardless whichever TOC operates that train in case of a delay, as I always choose the tightest connection available for my journeys. In this case can I only opt for a normal interavailable ticket? Is an AP geographical route ticket also OK to take another company's train in case of delay?

 

[Watershed]

Is LNER contractually obliged to carry you when the next Lumo is due in 4 hours, since,

No.

I really need a guarantee that I'll be able to take the next train on the same route regardless whichever TOC operates that train in case of a delay

In that case, an operator-specific ticket won't be suitable for you.

as I always choose the tightest connection available for my journeys

Has it ever occurred to you that this seems to be the root of a lot of the problems you encounter when making journeys?

In this case can I only opt for a normal interavailable ticket?

An interavailable flexible ticket will give you the maximum flexibility, yes.

Is an AP geographical route ticket also OK to take another company's train in case of delay?

You need to observe the route and/or company restrictions shown on the ticket; in the case of disruption, you can take the next service complying with these restrictions. In some cases that will be more specific than others, e.g. GWR set a lot of "AP Xtown" Advances, whilst most other operators go for "Y Trains Only".

 

[miklcct]

In that case, an operator-specific ticket won't be suitable for you.

So does this mean an operator-restricted advance ticket does not confer any delay protection if the booked train is preceded by a tight connection, and the next train after it is by a different train company?

 

[AlterEgo]

The most sensible option is to take an earlier connection from Wylam and bake in the hour in Newcastle. The station is pretty central and there are several pubs and coffee shops around to while away an hour.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm looking to book a journey from Newcastle to London and can pick up a Lumo advance ticket for £15.10 however the connecting train into Newcastle from the Tyne Valley is scheduled to arrive in Newcastle at 17:39. The transfer time for Newcastle is 8 minutes and so in theory the connection is officially possible (just).

IMHO, using a branch line train to connect with a long distance, operator-specific service, and allowing yourself the absolute minimum connection time at Newcastle, is potentially leaving yourself a hostage to fortune.

Probably work out o.k., outside chance it might not.

 

[yorkie]

IMHO, using a branch line train to connect with a long distance, operator-specific service, and allowing yourself the absolute minimum connection time at Newcastle, is potentially leaving yourself a hostage to fortune.

Probably work out o.k., outside chance it might not.

Providing it is a valid connection, the OP is entitled to do this; any delay is covered and Delay Repay would apply as well as onward travel being a contractual entitlement.

Onward travel would be to the final ticketed destination, so of the destination is beyond King's Cross, booking a through itinerary to somewhere where the next Lumo would miss the final connection would compel LNER to assist, whether they want to assist or not.

However to minimise the chance of missing the connection, as @AlterEgo quite rightly says, additional interchange time can be specified. The irony is that LNER or Lumo themselves won't allow this option to be selected, but if Trainsplit was used, this is easily possible by specifying changing at Newcastle and adding additional interchange time, as required.

 

[XAM2175]

So does this mean an operator-restricted advance ticket does not confer any delay protection if the booked train is preceded by a tight connection, and the next train after it is by a different train company?

You are entitled to take the next available train that complies with both the route and operator restrictions applicable to your original ticket, and to receive Delay Repay should you be delayed enough to be eligible for it.

You are allowed to ask for permission to travel on a train that does not comply with the route and/or operator restrictions applicable to your original ticket, but you have no automatic right to be given this permission unless you would be stranded without it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Take it that the 1747 Lumo service is the last of the day Southbound from Newcastle to London (Mon-Fri)?

 

[Haywain]

Take it that the 1747 Lumo service is the last of the day Southbound from Newcastle to London (Mon-Fri)?

See post #9.

 

[yorkie]

Take it that the 1747 Lumo service is the last of the day Southbound from Newcastle to London (Mon-Fri)?

In the current timetable yes...

Edit: it looks like 14th of March is the first day when a later service operates (2133 from NCL); anyone whose final ticketed destination was King's Cross could theoretically be told to wait until that time, facing a delay of nearly 4 hours.

However anyone who would otherwise be stranded (say they had ticket(s) to a destination for which there was no connection from the 2133) would have to be conveyed on an earlier service.

The overriding principle is that you cannot be stranded; any Train Company in a position to help (in this case LNER would be the appropriate company) must do so.

 

[miklcct]

You are entitled to take the next available train that complies with both the route and operator restrictions applicable to your original ticket, and to receive Delay Repay should you be delayed enough to be eligible for it.

This term is meaningless on an XC ticket on the Bournemouth route as a train only runs every 2 hours, and also meaningless in OP's case as the next Lumo service is in 4 hours.

So the conclusion is to buy an any permitted ticket, or get a travel insurance, as the railway doesn't bother carry you to get your destination on time if a connection is missed.

 

[XAM2175]

This term is meaningless on an XC ticket on the Bournemouth route as a train only runs every 2 hours, and also meaningless in OP's case as the next Lumo service is in 4 hours.

Not at all. If the next compliant train is in two hours or four hours, or perhaps even longer, then that's how long you're required to wait in order to benefit from the protections of the Conditions of Travel. It might be extremely inconvenient, but it's not "meaningless".

Only if there is no further compliant train that day - meaning you'd be unable to complete your journey at all (rather than just on time) - would you have an entitlement to take a non-compliant train.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier, you may be able to ask for permission to take an earlier train regardless - but you don't have a contractual entitlement to take it without permission.

So the conclusion is to buy an any permitted ticket, or get a travel insurance, as the railway doesn't bother carry you to get your destination on time if a connection is missed.

If you absolutely need to arrive on-time my suggestion would be that you leave a bit earlier, and that you allow a reasonable amount of "padding" time to allow not only for the fact that your connection my be missed, but also for the fact that you may be delayed some other way even after successfully making your connection. I understand that it may be annoying, but it is no less prudent a thing to do when taking the train than it is to do when driving your car to an important event or appointment.

Remember also that the railway has a scheme for refunding some or all of your fare if it is unable to deliver you to your destination at the scheduled time.

But yes, if you want to continue to plan your journeys and your days to the microsecond with only minimal allowance for contingencies, you'll need to buy fully-flexible tickets. Travel insurance however strikes me as being excessive, unless you intend for it to cover losses incurred as a result of being late?

 

[yorkie]

This term is meaningless on an XC ticket on the Bournemouth route as a train only runs every 2 hours, and also meaningless in OP's case as the next Lumo service is in 4 hours.

So the conclusion is to buy an any permitted ticket, or get a travel insurance, as the railway doesn't bother carry you to get your destination on time if a connection is missed.

If the customer's final destination was King's Cross and they did not want to accept a 4 hour delay, and if Lumo/LNER were not budging on that length of delay, the customer can:

• obtain a full refund on the unused ticket; and
• obtain a new Any Permitted ticket, to use on LNER

They are therefore still better off buying the cheap Lumo ticket, as in the worst case scenario they paid no more than what you are advocating and if the connection is made, they have a cheaper journey.

If the customer wishes to minimise the risk of missing the connection, they can do so using Trainsplit's advanced options and request additional interchange time

If the customer has an onward connection from King's Cross and is worried about missing the last connection, it would be wise to book the journey through to their final destination; if the later Lumo train would not make the last train, LNER will be compelled to help them.

While this may not be an ideal situation, it really isn't as bad as you make it out to be; my strong advice to people is to seriously consider booking it as one through journey on Trainsplit and also to give consideration to either adding additional change time, or booking to the final destination (if applicable), or both, and if they do that, they should be in a strong position.

 

[Starmill]

If Northern cause the connection to be missed, really it is up to them to choose how this is to be remedied. This may well be via LNER as people have assumed here, but it could be by other means.

It's absolutely worth ensuring that your tickets are purchased together, as has been suggested several times now.

 

[Watershed]

So does this mean an operator-restricted advance ticket does not confer any delay protection if the booked train is preceded by a tight connection, and the next train after it is by a different train company?

You have the absolute right to take the next service that complies with your ticket's route and/or TOC restriction. That may necessitate an inconvenient wait of multiple hours, but it is not as if you are stranded.

One thing to add here is that Article 16 of EU Regulation 1371/2007 gives you the right to be rerouted "at the earliest opportunity" if a delay of more than 60 minutes is anticipated. Therefore if waiting for the next Lumo service would cause a delay of 4 hours, you ought to be rerouted onto LNER so as to reduce your delay. However, how that would work out in practice is another matter.

 

[realemil]

One thing to add here is that Article 16 of EU Regulation 1371/2007 gives you the right to be rerouted "at the earliest opportunity" if a delay of more than 60 minutes is anticipated. Therefore if waiting for the next Lumo service would cause a delay of 4 hours, you ought to be rerouted onto LNER so as to reduce your delay. However, how that rwould work out in practice is another matter.

I think most staff would argue that EU regulations aren’t valid in the UK due to brexit.

Not sure I’d ever risk that option, if the customer wants to be safe - just buy a single from kings cross to an onward station.

Or as many others have suggested, arrive into Newcastle early. It’s a great station

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think most staff would argue that EU regulations aren’t valid in the UK due to brexit.

All EU regulations have been transcribed into UK law, with a view to "cleaning them up" later, so they absolutely are.