Delay compensation on a SailRail journey

[feline1]

The reason I ask is because it always takes a long time to disembark. The last time I travelled Holyhead to Dublin I would say it was the better part of an hour before we were in the terminal. So if your crossing was delayed by an hour due to weather then there is your two hour connection gone.

Yes but that length of disembarkation time is allowed for in the itinery provided by the National Rail Journey Planner. And Stena know what those itineries are, they sell SailRail tickets themselves.

 

[najaB]

Yes but that length of disembarkation time is allowed for in the itinery provided by the National Rail Journey Planner. And Stena know what those itineries are, they sell SailRail tickets themselves.

But throw in an hour's delay on the crossing and there goes your window. Unless the ferry docked on time I can't see any validity to your statement:

The main causes of delay on my Stena journey were:
- half-assed understaffed passenger check-in desk
- half-assed baggage reclaim
- half-assed shuttle bus to the train station.

As you just said, that half-assed-ness was already accounted for.

 

[feline1]

But throw in an hour's delay on the crossing and there goes your window. Unless the ferry docked on time I can't see any validity to your statement:As you just said, that half-assed-ness was already accounted for.

The vagaries of wind and ocean current are beyond Stena's control.
the half-assedness of only opening 1 out of 3 checkin desks, having a 15 minute fag break instead of putting the luggage on the carousel, or the bus driver only accepting €uros and not having any change ARE all within Stena's control, that's the difference.

If the sailing is late, they could maybe, for instance, give up their fag break to make sure passengers make their connections.

 

[Greenback]

To my mind, this is a classic example of where the free market fails.

I don't think the free market works at all when it comes to transport. I don't think that air travel is an example of the free market either, there are far too many regulations and controls that remain in place for that to be the case.

The relevant issues (integrated national and international public transport in and to/from the UK so as not to marginalise the regions and end up with everything/one going to live in London, and environmentally friendly low-carbon transport) are simply not congruent with Stena's business objective of maximising revenue.

I agree. I'm mainly looking at this from the point of view of compensation as applied to air travel by the EU. If sea and rail travel is supposed to eb an alternative to air travel, meaning an element of competition that all politicians seem to love so much these days, then this should be looked at.

However, as I say my concerns are that it will simply lead to the abandonment of through tickets. So, while I agree in principle that compensation and refund arrangements should apply ferries as they do to air and rail travel, in practice it isn't as simple or easy as I;d like it to be.

If it starts costing them through having to make Delay Repay payments larger than the actual income from tickets then the only logical business decision would be to stop participating.

Exactly. If there was any requirement to offer anything liek the level of compensation provided by airlines and rail; companies, then they would just walk away as fast as they could.

The reason I ask is because it always takes a long time to disembark. The last time I travelled Holyhead to Dublin I would say it was the better part of an hour before we were in the terminal. So if your crossing was delayed by an hour due to weather then there is your two hour connection gone.

I bought a Sail Rail ticket to Wexford via Fishguard a couple of years ago. The ferry came along side at around 1755, but with all the faffing around, the foot passenger doors didn't open until about 1810. Knowing the extended walk that is now in place to reach the train at Rosslare (nothing to do with Stena) I was starting to get a bit concerned about making the 1835 train, which happens to be the last of the day.

As it happened, I caught it with 5 minutes to spare, but it wouldn't have taken much of a delay to have missed it. I hoped they would hold the train for those who were slower moving than me, but we pulled away roughly on time and I couldn't see any stragglers. Even then, though, I didn't think much about what might have happened had I ended up being delayed, inconvenienced and out of pocket.

I bet that no one would have wanted to take any responsibility, and clearly this could be a disincentive to travel by land. Not that Stena would care much, as said their business is road vehicles.

 

[najaB]

I bought a Sail Rail ticket to Wexford via Fishguard a couple of years ago...

I've done all four main Sail Rail routes (Fishguard-Rosslare, Holyhead-Dublin, Liverpool-Belfast and Cairnryan-Belfast) and the last one is the only one where foot traffic (mainly Sail Rail) is a significant contributor to Stena's business. Unlike the other three you walk on/off the ferry at either end, directly into the terminal building.

On all the other routes they could quite happily lose the business and it wouldn't make a dent in their business either way.

 

[krus_aragon]

I've done all four main Sail Rail routes (Fishguard-Rosslare, Holyhead-Dublin, Liverpool-Belfast and Cairnryan-Belfast) and the last one is the only one where foot traffic (mainly Sail Rail) is a significant contributor to Stena's business. Unlike the other three you walk on/off the ferry at either end, directly into the terminal building.

One could also walk on/off on the HSS on Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire, sadly no more.

 

[najaB]

One could also walk on/off on the HSS on Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire, sadly no more.

Unfortunately that is no longer an option , and I never got the chance to use that service. :cry:

 

[Wolfie]

Exactly right and if it starts costing shipping companies loads to pay delay repay compensation for circumstances out of their control, then the only people that will pay for this are the travelling public.

Ships are much different to trains as I have tried to explain and the delay margin therefore needs to set higher than in the rail model where every operator runs under one set of infrastructure and signs into a single contract with network rail.

Your first para advances exactly the same arguments that were used by the airlines in opposing EU compensation rules - it did them no good whatsoever and indeed the European Courts have systematically thrown out their attempts to evade compliance....

 

[najaB]

Your first para advances exactly the same arguments that were used by the airlines in opposing EU compensation rules - it did them no good whatsoever and indeed the European Courts have systematically thrown out their attempts to evade compliance....

The difference being that foot passenger traffic is largely inconsequential to the ferry companies. For Stena the only route that it would make an impact on is Cairnryan-Belfast.

Edit: By which I mean they could pull out and it wouldn't make any significant difference to their bottom line.

 

[Hornet]

Should have sailed with Irish Ferries. Used them over the past 32 years and never had a problem at Holyhead or Dublin Port, and that includes the day my flight was cancelled due to the Icelandic Volcano dumping ash everywhere. I had 12 hour notice from Aer Lingus. Where people were whining that they could not get home for day's on end, I still made it home by Train and Ulysses before I would have done if my flight had gone. Would not use Stena on Dublin route, as unlike Irish Ferries they do not have a direct gangway link to their Terminal Building at Dublin Port or choice of Bus (Direct Bus to Busaras or No.53). Stena are well known for problems when the weather is bad. The Ulysses goes however bad it gets in the Irish Sea, (and i've been on it when it's been the only ferry sailing between the UK and Ireland, with Stena refugee's joining us on the journey).

 

[feline1]

Hornet, you may wish to read this article on a recent Irish Ferries sailing. They routinely insist on sailing in unsafe conditions. http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...erries-boat-hit-by-storm-imogen-34448648.html

For the future reference of anyone else:
it seems the definitive answer is, if you have a complaint about the ferry company on a SailRail journey, the route for complaint escalation is to
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/maritime-passenger-rights
This has the PDF (already linked to on this thread) about EU Regulation No. 1177/2010, on maritime passenger rights,
and explains that the Maritime & Coastguard Agency is the National Enforcement Body (NEB) for this in the UK.
There's contact info for them on the webpage.

I'm currently in touch with them myself to get clarification of how EU Regulation No. 1177/2010 applies. This is because the rights to delay compensation seem to vary with the length of the journey and the delay reaching the "final" destination.
It's not yet clear what this means in the case of SailRail - does it relate only to the length and final destination of the ferry leg of your SailRail journey, or to all legs.

I'll update the thread with any info I get back!

 

[kevinwaltets]

I linked to this document wY back up thread. Before you go running off to the MCA you should contact ABTA.

 

[feline1]

I linked to this document wY back up thread. Before you go running off to the MCA you should contact ABTA.

I know you did Kevin, that's how I found it in the first place, thank you!
I was just linking to the page that hosts it too, though - that gives the context of what the document is for and who to contact if you need to deal with issues relating to it.
It's telling that nowhere in Stena's literature does it mention that document or your rights regarding it, that I have seen!

 

[feline1]

well, I had a very prompt response from the MCA, who are looking into whether I should get delay compensation on a SailRail ticket.

It will be interesting to see what they decide! I will let the forum know.

I know some posters above have expressed a worry that if ferry operators are forced to compensate SailRail passengers for delays, they'll simply pull out of the scheme,
but I would surely think that if the UK's National Enforcement Body tells a ferry operator to comply with an EU Regulation, and they respond by refusing to participate in integrate transport schemes, this will not go down too well at the Department of Transport...

 

[feline1]

And I have an answer!

From a nice man at the Maritime and Coastguard Authority in Southampton.
Some pertinent points:

Under the maritime passenger rights regulation, that delays caused by weather conditions effecting the "safe operation of the vessel" are exempt from compensation. ...
The regulations only cover delays in the time of arrival of the maritime leg of the journey. This would mean the arrival of the ferry being more than 1 hour after the original / scheduled arrival time. )'Arrival' meaning when the ferry comes alongside the berth. It does not extend to the time it takes to exit the port etc.)

Each leg of the journey is in effect covered by separate regulations e.g. maritime passenger / rail passenger.

It may be that you could be covered by the package travel regulation if you booked travel and another element such as accommodation / sightseeing trips as a ‘package’ with a tour operator / travel agent; but you would need to make a claim against the tour operator / travel agent and reference their terms and conditions. I have no jurisdiction in this area but understand ABTA could advise.

So there we have it:
SailRail does offer an integrated through ticket combining rail and ferry travel, but it does NOT offer integrated delay compensation or any guarantee of making connections between those rail and ferry legs.

Separate delay compensation can apply to the ferry leg on its own, but all the ferry operator has to mention the magic words "weather conditions" and "safety of the vessel" and you can kiss that goodbye too.

The only way you may be able to guarantee your SailRail connections is to buy the ticket from a travel agent in combination with accomodation and/or attraction tickets, in which case ABTA may be able assist.
Or, alternatively, fork out for travel insurance.
But given that SailRail is so cheap (£59 Brighton to Belfast, for instance), it hardly seems cost effective to take out travel insurance - instead just wearily assume that Stena will make you miss your connection and make sure there's a backup train on the timetable
Alternatively, fork out for a taxi from the ferry port to your train station in Dublin, rather than pay €2.10 for their comedy shuttlebus.