Delay attribution for bi mode units with infrastructure fault.

[robbeech]

It’s fairly common knowledge that the popular bi mode class 80* units are notably faster on electric than on diesel. I’m assuming the cost of running them on Diesel is greater than on electric too.

should there be a supply problem (but no physical damage blocking the line) to the ohle and trains have to run on diesel, do they get to claim funds from Network Rail for additional costs with regard to diesel use, and get a discount from their fees for using the ohle, and/or if the train were to fall behind due to being on electric timings (unlikely at the moment but possible moving forwards) do the delay minutes for down to Network Rail or the operator.

Do we think an operator would make decisions on what to do with services based on the answers to the above questions or would they just suck up the extra cost to ensure as many passengers got to their destination as quickly as possible?

Edit : perhaps the wrong sub forum?

 

[Haywain]

Leaving aside other issues, the fact such a train is on diesel under dead wires means that any delay is going to have a root cause to which delays are attributed and be part of wider disruption. As such, running on diesel will be a mitigation of delays and the cost of delays.

 

[paulkidger]

I was shocked to learn a few years ago, that the diesel oil used in trains was no longer duty free 'Red' diesel but fully taxed at the same rate as road fuel. I am not sure what taxation applies to the electricity supplied for public transport, but I dont think it is the same as road fuel duty. Likewise, I dont know whether the railway companies can claim a 'Traction Current rebate'. Such taking and giving is not uncommon. This came about when the use of Red diesel was further restricted to agriculture, commercial fishing (and I guess other maritime uses), boiler fuel and static generator fuel. I think this was an EU ruling. It hit previous users of Red Diesel very hard and this must have included the railways. From an efficiency point of view, a properly run diesel engine should be able to generate electricity at slightly better efficiency than fuel based grid generation. It also avoids the transmission losses. However this efficiency is affected by load changes and idling times. Then the case for electrification is favoured due to the change to 'Greener' electricity and the fact that newer stock can regenerate during braking...something which is difficult (but not impossible) with a diesel engine .

 

[cav1975]

This gov.uk page suggests that rail vehicles of all kinds will continue to be able to use "red diesel" when the law changes in April 2022.

Reform of red diesel and other rebated fuels entitlement

www.gov.uk

This measure introduces legislative changes through Finance Bill 2021 and subsequent secondary legislation to restrict the entitlement to use red diesel and rebated biofuels from April 2022 to the following qualifying purposes:

....
to propel passenger, freight or maintenance vehicles designed to run on rail tracks
...

 

[supervc-10]

From an efficiency point of view, a properly run diesel engine should be able to generate electricity at slightly better efficiency than fuel based grid generation

This is absolute rubbish. A combined cycle gas power plant is about 60% efficient. The very best diesel engines are mid 40s- and that's purely theoretical efficiency, when the engine is operating at its peak efficiency speed in ideal conditions, and doesn't take into account generation or transmission losses.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s fairly common knowledge that the popular bi mode class 80* units are notably faster on electric than on diesel. I’m assuming the cost of running them on Diesel is greater than on electric too.

should there be a supply problem (but no physical damage blocking the line) to the ohle and trains have to run on diesel, do they get to claim funds from Network Rail for additional costs with regard to diesel use, and get a discount from their fees for using the ohle, and/or if the train were to fall behind due to being on electric timings (unlikely at the moment but possible moving forwards) do the delay minutes for down to Network Rail or the operator.

Do we think an operator would make decisions on what to do with services based on the answers to the above questions or would they just suck up the extra cost to ensure as many passengers got to their destination as quickly as possible?

Edit : perhaps the wrong sub forum?

in such an example, the TOC would not be charged for the cost of traction electricity (as it didn’t use any). Any delays caused by the use of diesel rather than electricity would be attributed to the original incident, and assuming this was NRs then NR would pick up the delay minutes and resulting cost.

I was shocked to learn a few years ago, that the diesel oil used in trains was no longer duty free 'Red' diesel but fully taxed at the same rate as road fuel.

that’s incorrect.