Defining trains as peak or off peak?

[Greenback]

Mallard raises this point in another thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=53999

I'm interested in whether this approach might work. I can see some advantages, but I wonder how it would work on routes where there are different peaks. In the other thread I used West Wales to Manchester as an example, but it probably isn't a very good one, after due consideration!

Perhaps a discussion might help?

 

[northwichcat]

I think it would actually work better in the old days when more people carried paper timetables around with them. A simple OP or P symbol above each service in the timetable would have worked at one stage but not now.

 

[shinkansen1966]

To what extent is the peak / off peak price differential an attempt at

• revenue raising
• managing demand
• asking those who use peak hour trains to pay for those trains which are only needed at busy times

?

 

[cuccir]

As pointed out in that thread, including by you, the obvious obstacle is that long-distance services can travel the country for upwards of 10 hours.

To take the obvious service: the Aberdeen to Plymouth leaves Aberdeen at 08:20 and arrives in Plymouth at 19:45. For much of its route it is in time that we might sensibly call 'off-peak' - I'm not familiar with the Aberdeen area but I suspect most local commuting will be to Aberdeen, not away from it, so the early travel to Stonehaven/Montrose is unlikely to be peak. But it also forms the 16:51 from Cheltenham, the 17:27 from Bristol Parkway, and the 17:44 Bristol Temple Meads to Taunton/Exeter etc; I'd imagine that these are prime 'peak territory'.

You end up with the potentially more confusing situation where off-peak trains and peak trains use the same station at the same time. {edit - I realise that we have this now to some extent!}

That said, I have before said that a certain amount of peak standardization would improve things for customers. A standard rule clearly can't apply, but a smaller range of variation would benefit passengers.

The question is: where does the line stand between need to manage demand and the need to make things as clear and user-friendly as possible?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can see how it might seem to be better, but there are pitfalls which I think are unavoidable with such a system, particularly on medium to long distance journeys or when changing trains.

 

[shinkansen1966]

The solution is divide our trains up into InterCity services, Network South East, Local urban trains outside London (eg WY Metro) and inter ubran or rural services and price as follows:

InterCity: scrap peak and off peak fares. Replace with single fares and advance purchase. eg London-Manchester single fare: £60, advance purchase singles: £20/£30/£40.

Network SE: peak / off peak fares based on 09:30 rule with singles, day returns, 5 day returns

Urban services outside London: same as above

Rural services: single, day returns, period returns: no time restrictions of any kind.

 

[Greenback]

As pointed out in that thread, including by you, the obvious obstacle is that long-distance services can travel the country for upwards of 10 hours.

Yes, and that is exactlt where the idea could become even more complex than it is now.

To take the obvious service: the Aberdeen to Plymouth leaves Aberdeen at 08:20 and arrives in Plymouth at 19:45. For much of its route it is in time that we might sensibly call 'off-peak' - I'm not familiar with the Aberdeen area but I suspect most local commuting will be to Aberdeen, not away from it, so the early travel to Stonehaven/Montrose is unlikely to be peak. But it also forms the 16:51 from Cheltenham, the 17:27 from Bristol Parkway, and the 17:44 Bristol Temple Meads to Taunton/Exeter etc; I'd imagine that these are prime 'peak territory'.

That's a much betetr example than mine. I would imagine that the train would be classed as off peak until, perhaps Birmingham, then peak until Exeter.

Presumably the long through journeys such as Newcastle to Bristol or Exeter would be off peak, but journeys from, say Birmingham to Bristol would be considered peak. I don;t think that is afar away from what ticket restrictions do, or at least could do, at present. It certainly seems just as confuisng and unwiedly int his example as the current arrangments.

The question is: where does the line stand between need to manage demand and the need to make things as clear and user-friendly as possible?

Yes, that is the question! I don't know the answer though!

I can see how it might seem to be better, but there are pitfalls which I think are unavoidable with such a system, particularly on medium to long distance journeys or when changing trains.

Customer perception might be key. imagine having a ticket from Shrewsbury to Middlesbrough. It's an off peak ticket at present and you are getting a peak time morning train into Birmingham to change for an XC service to Darlington, then a further change to Middlesbrough. Would you have to buy a peak ticket because of the Birmingham section?

If the off peak ticket was still valid, how much confusion would be generated where passengers have off peak tickets for trains labelled and announced a s peak? How worse would thigns b eon longer journeys which pass through several peaks, and have several changes?

What looks as though it might be a simple approach may not be in practice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The solution is divide our trains up into InterCity services, Network South East, Local urban trains outside London (eg WY Metro) and inter ubran or rural services and price as follows:

InterCity: scrap peak and off peak fares. Replace with single fares and advance purchase. eg London-Manchester single fare: £60, advance purchase singles: £20/£30/£40.

Network SE: peak / off peak fares based on 09:30 rule with singles, day returns, 5 day returns

Urban services outside London: same as above

Rural services: single, day returns, period returns: no time restrictions of any kind.

As HHF mentions, how would that work with changes of train? For argument's sake, Dover to Looe, which covers all three types?

 

[cuccir]

The solution is divide our trains up into InterCity services, Network South East, Local urban trains outside London (eg WY Metro) and inter ubran or rural services and price as follows:

InterCity: scrap peak and off peak fares. Replace with single fares and advance purchase. eg London-Manchester single fare: £60, advance purchase singles: £20/£30/£40.

Network SE: peak / off peak fares based on 09:30 rule with singles, day returns, 5 day returns

Urban services outside London: same as above

Rural services: single, day returns, period returns: no time restrictions of any kind.

Whilst I disagree with a few of the specifics you argue for there - particularly, I think: 1. you need a peak for 'InterCity' services, and cheaper returns for leisure travellers during the day; and 2., your system would struggle to cope with services such as CrossCountry, Virgin in Lancashire and East Coast in North East who operate trains which are both long-distance and commuter at the same time - I think that as a basic system you're not far off.
--
And yes, the train changes issue does complicate things somewhat!

 

[shinkansen1966]

Whilst I disagree with a few of the specifics you argue for there - particularly, I think: 1. you need a peak for 'InterCity' services, and cheaper returns for leisure travellers during the day; and 2., your system would struggle to cope with services such as CrossCountry, Virgin in Lancashire and East Coast in North East who operate trains which are both long-distance and commuter at the same time - I think that as a basic system you're not far off.
--
And yes, the train changes issue does complicate things somewhat!

To get around the above, for InterCity services under 75 miles - apply local fares: single/day return/5 day return and for journey over 75 miles apply single/advance singles.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I was just thinking about what the reason is that longer-distance off-peak tickets allow travel on services that would be peak for local tickets. E.g. somebody used Shrewsbury to Middlesborough on the morning peak into Birmingham as an example. The restriction on the long-distance through fare is set by Transpennine Express. I can't see how London Midland (who set the Shewsbury to Birmingham fare) benefit in any way from this arrangement. These long distance travellers on their off-peak tickets are taking up seats that they could otherwise fill with commuters into Birmingham paying peak fares.

Is the lack of restrictions on the longer-distance ticket simply a pragmatic recognition that it would be unreasonable to force people to start much later in order to make such a journey on a reasonably-priced ticket?

I think that the flexibility for such long-distance passengers is protected to an extent by the fact that a different TOC sets the long distance fare. If TPE had discussions with LM to introduce morning peak restrictions into Birmingham on through Shrewsbury - Middlesborough tickets, wouldn't that be seen as collusion and not allowed?

On the other hand if we were to move to train-based rather than ticket-based restrictions, I can't foresee any case in which the person who decides whether a train would be peak or off-peak would by anyone else but the TOC who operates that train (subject to appropriate government regulation of course).

In which case, of course LM are going to want to make their morning peak trains into Birmingham peak trains. And I'm sure there are many cases more all over the country. Would this not make many long distance journeys almost impossible to complete on off-peak tickets, because no one would be able to start early enough in the morning? If afternoon peak restrictions were allowed to be introduced as well then it would be even worse.