Declassified or not?

[Norb]

I purchased a anytime day single 1st Chorley > Manchester Stations from the ticket machine at Chorley this morning. (£12.10)

I caught the 0756 TPE service to Oxford Road

On reaching Bolton, the First class compartment filled with passengers both seated and standing, to the extent that the stewardess manning the refreshment trolley was penned into her alcove.

On leaving Bolton, the train manager/guard/conductor announced that the service was busy and that passengers should remove belongings from seats and that first class accommodation was for first class ticket holders only, which produced a laugh from the newcomers.

No ticketing checks were made (although on the same journey last week, the same stewardess asked to see my ticket on joining at Chorley)

Q1. Was the train declassified and thus I am able to claim compensation as per this post or am I out of luck?

Q2. If it was declassified, would I claim against Northern who sold me the ticket or TPE who declassified the train, and how would I go about this?

 

[455driver]

No it wasnt declassified although you could complain to TPE that 1st class was filled with standard class passengers, you do know 100% that they were standard class passengers dont you?

Some vouchers would probably be sent as a good will gesture.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If it was declassified there would have been an announcement to that effect, the fact that an announcement made it clear that first class was for first class ticket holders suggest that it wasn't declassified.

If there was a lack of provision where there should be, it would be TPE that would reimburse you as it is their service. If the ticket office knew there was no first class they should not offer a first class ticket, but it doesn't sound like either of these are the case.

I would, however, suggest writing to TPE as it sounds like those people are fully aware a ticket check won't be made and TPE should really do something about that. You might even get something back as a 'goodwill gesture'.

 

[Lad Brookes]

So, let me get this right.

You bought a 1st class ticket, you travelled in 1st class, and had a seat for the whole journey?
The guard announced that the 1st class accommodation was for 1st class ticket holders. Surely that confirms that it was not declassified?

I don't see the issue. You paid for 1st class, and received 1st class. Is your complaint that it looked like other people were in 1st class without paying for it, and that means you shouldn't have to pay for it either?

 

[andrewkeith5]

This brings about an interesting concept. In the event, assuming that the crowd of passengers were actually standard class passengers, if no attempt is made which is realistically likely to maintain first class as first class (is an announcement really going to do anything in that situation? Where are the people even going to move to?), surely first class has to be de-classified by default - irrespective of any announcements - as it is either impossible to maintain a multiple-class service or the operator are not bothering to do so. TPE don't make this easy for themselves because of the layout of their trains.

 

[table38]

In my experience, it does seem to happen a lot on evening peak trains between Leeds and Huddersfield, especially if First Class is at the front and the guard is at the back.

Maybe regular commuters know that if the train is wedged, there is no way the guard is going to be able to get down to the front in time to check, and in any case, they probably think that the worst that would happen is that they would be asked to move, and if there is nowhere to move to, they are safe!

 

[reb0118]

I don't see the issue. You paid for 1st class, and received 1st class. Is your complaint that it looked like other people were in 1st class without paying for it, and that means you shouldn't have to pay for it either?

That may well be true. However we can look at it from another point of view in that you may purchase a 1st class ticket in the expectation to get a quieter ride on a busy service - having your compartment overflowing with the hoi polloi is not conducent to that valid expectation.

Discuss......

Further to the above, and although traincrew have no doubt regularly reported the above to management, there is nothing like a few well worded letters of complaint from the toffs in 1st to help focus the mind that further action is needed in adequately policing the said compartment.

 

[table38]

Further to the above, and although traincrew have no doubt regularly reported the above to management, there is nothing like a few well worded letters of complaint from the toffs in 1st to help focus the mind that further action is needed in adequately policing the said compartment.

So the retired couple I was speaking to the other day, whose son had bought them a First Class ticket as a treat to go to York for the day to celebrate their wedding anniversary, are somehow toffs in your world?

 

[thealexweb]

The 1st class on Transpennine's Bolton services is very very rarely officially declassified. The overcrowding through Bolton has reached a point where the 185s leave very heavily loaded and people stand where they can.

For the last three timetable revisions capacity has been stripped out of Bolton while passenger growth continues to outstrip adjacent towns, rising 8% in the last figures.

 

[andrewkeith5]

That may well be true. However we can look at it from another point of view in that you may purchase a 1st class ticket in the expectation to get a quieter ride on a busy service - having your compartment overflowing with the hoi polloi is not conducent to that valid expectation.

Discuss......

Further to the above, and although traincrew have no doubt regularly reported the above to management, there is nothing like a few well worded letters of complaint from the toffs in 1st to help focus the mind that further action is needed in adequately policing the said compartment.

This (excepting the unnecessary comments about those who choose to use first class) is sort of the point I was making earlier - if you're paying for the use of an exclusive/limited access facility and it becomes impossible for the provider to limit access to said limited access facility (i.e. the train is rammed), by definition the product purchased is not being provided and thus any premium paid cannot reasonably be taken as payment as there is no supply of the product.

Some answers to questions that are probably inevitable:
- It is never impossible to police the limited access facility on a service upon which it is possible for the train manager/guard/whatever they're called this week to pass down the train. If a passenger can pass up and down the train, so can a guard. However this cannot imply that the ability for the guard to police the limited access facility means that it should, by default, be considered to be actively policed.
- By "impossible", I mean in the event that is it not possible to either:
-- Check the validity of any entitlement of those claiming to have the right to use the limited access area; or
-- Permit those who are using the area without entitlement to leave the area (i.e. there's nowhere else for them to go on the train - they can always be removed at stations (but good luck with that one); or
-- Take payment when reasonably offered and by reasonable means for a suitable product which would permit the customer access to the limited access area. This may include a penalty fare.

In my opinion, in the event of the above it would be impossible to maintain the classification of a first class area of a train and thus it must, by definition, be declassified and the appropriate refunds offered to those who have paid the premium for access.

Obviously all my opinion, but it's an interesting discussion.

 

[bb21]

So the retired couple I was speaking to the other day, whose son had bought them a First Class ticket as a treat to go to York for the day to celebrate their wedding anniversary, are somehow toffs in your world?

I think his tongue is firmly in the cheek with the italics.

 

[table38]

I think his tongue is firmly in the cheek with the italics.

Or maybe just the usual lazy stereotyping?

 

[bb21]

Or maybe just the usual lazy stereotyping?

Nah, knowing him, he wouldn't do that.

 

[reb0118]

So the retired couple I was speaking to the other day, whose son had bought them a First Class ticket as a treat to go to York for the day to celebrate their wedding anniversary, are somehow toffs in your world?

Temporary Toffs at the very least.

I often up my game & travel (Leisure) First on the Eurostar. Well at £38 flat rate who wouldn't. (Although to be fair I do dress like an off duty toff in my tweeds & brougues - all that's missing is the brace of grouse and the open shotgun in the crook of me arm!)

Don't take the use of the word "Toff" too seriously. To some it is not a pejorative insult but merely mild banter. Regardless of your social origins, if such a thing matters now in our classless society, those that pay extra for 1st class travel should be entitled to an enhanced level of service.

 

[table38]

Temporary Toffs at the very least.

OK apologies - maybe I'm just in a bad mood this morning!

 

[Merseysider]

So the retired couple I was speaking to the other day, whose son had bought them a First Class ticket as a treat to go to York for the day to celebrate their wedding anniversary, are somehow toffs in your world?

I wouldn't use the word toff either, most of the people in 1st are either people who have the wages to afford it and like to get some work done on the way, which would be impractical in a loud carriage, or people who book early and the price of a 1st advance isn't too far off a STD walk-up single.

That said, having passengers in 1st who haven't paid for the privelege does not preclude oneself from the requirement to hold a 1st ticket and I would be surprised if TPE do offer any form of recompense unless the service was declassified mid journey.

A lot of perks in 1st are complimentary and the TOC has no requirement to provide them.

 

[bb21]

True, however it would be much easier for the caseworker to throw some nominally zero-cost vouchers the complainant's way in the name of goodwill than risk further complaints and losing the custom in the future. £20 in vouchers is hardly going to make the TOC sweat.

 

[greatkingrat]

By the logic of some posters, if I travel on a train and my ticket is not checked, I should be entitled to a refund as the TOC has made no effort to stop people travelling for free.

 

[reb0118]

OK apologies - maybe I'm just in a bad mood this morning!

No worries. Humour can be subjective.

To be fair I do think the designers of trains, especially modern trains, have a lot to answer for in regard to the above problem. That and of course capacity & availability of rolling stock.

In the short term, I fear, nothing can be done. If a train is so busy that the excess standard class passengers have nowhere else to go but into the 1st compartment should we penalise them harshly or not at all? How about reservation compulsory trains? (We know that will not work!). So how about in the short term the TOCs react to where standard overcrowding affects the 1st compartment on a regular basis by officially declassifying 1st and reducing 1st prices from out with the affected areas to compensate.

Now this would create an anomaly in that as we couldn't have two 1st fares for the same flow the price for 1st where there is no overcrowding would also, of course, fall. That said as these journeys are normally off peak it would create a form of leisure first and may actually increase patronage of the 1st in certain circumstances.

Another option is to do what our European cousins do in that they generally separate local & long distance travel by use of set down or pick up only (and enforce it) or by the use of supplements for travel on intercity or long distance routes (and also enforce that).

Just a few thoughts.

 

[table38]

Maybe they should give the First Class passengers free cattle prods to keep the riff-raff out

No, I'm only joking. Realistically there isn't much they can do if the train is wedged. I was on a 158 (so a while ago!) coming back from Newcastle, but when we got to York, it had been Ladies Day or something and there genuinely just too many (presumed) FC passengers to seat.

I actually felt guilty because I had a cheap 1st Advance so was less worthy of a seat than those who had (probably) paid full-fare

 

[Norb]

If the stewardess made no attempt to enquire as to whether the passengers had valid tickets for the compartment (given that the previous week when it was quiet, she had checked mine) then (as per TPE's own FAQ)

Occasionally, when demand is high and all First Class ticket holders have been accommodated, the on board team may decide to offer available seating to standard class ticket holders.

the on board team HAS decided to offer available seating to standard class holders, and despite what the guard mentioned in his announcement from the other end of the train (First accommodation was at the front this time, compared with being at the rear last week when the First accommodation was sacrosanct and the Guard checked my ticket) the service was declassified

 

[Solent&Wessex]

- It is never impossible to police the limited access facility on a service upon which it is possible for the train manager/guard/whatever they're called this week to pass down the train. If a passenger can pass up and down the train, so can a guard.

There are two points here.

a) Whilst it may be possible to get there, it may not be possible to get there in the allocated time. On the Bolton corridor station stops are every 5 minutes or so, even on the TPE trains. There are internal instructions which means that at *some* stations the Guard must dispatch from the cab at the rear of the train, and not the intermediate controls. Aside from this, there are no door controls for the Guard in the front coach, only in the middle coach. So whilst it might feasibly be possible for the Guard to get there, it may not be possible for him to get there, and back to the appropriate door controls in the other carriages, in time for the next station.

b) I often make the reverse comment when ejecting people from First Class, especially when there are actually seats at the other end of the train. I often point out that I have walked the whole length of the train quite easily, whilst carrying this ticket machine, so therefore it is possible for you to walk down to the other end where there is more space. What often happens is that everyone crams into the First Class carriage, declares it too full and unsafe to walk down the train and then fills up first class - despite the fact that the other end may well have empty seats or far more standing space. I recognise this isn't always the case on the Bolton corridor, but it is very often the case on the Huddersfield and Liverpool routes, where people seem to flock to the First Class carriage like bees round honey.

If the stewardess made no attempt to enquire as to whether the passengers had valid tickets for the compartment (given that the previous week when it was quiet, she had checked mine) then (as per TPE's own FAQ) the on board team HAS decided to offer available seating to standard class holders, and despite what the guard mentioned in his announcement from the other end of the train (First accommodation was at the front this time, compared with being at the rear last week when the First accommodation was sacrosanct and the Guard checked my ticket) the service was declassified

The Steward / Stewardess has no authority to wave the First Class rule, this is purely down to the Conductor. The Steward / Stewardess has no authority in relation to any ticketing matter. They will occasionally check tickets to ensure they are giving refreshments to First Class ticket holders prior to the Conductor's arrival. The terms "Offer available seating" does not mean doing nothing about those that invite themselves (as in the OP's case) it means that the Conductor personally invites somebody to occupy a First Class seat.

I refer you a leaflet produced by TPE about 18 months or so ago:

 

[Norb]

Received the following reply today:

Dear Xxxxxxx Xxxxxx



Thank you for your contacting us about your journey on 09 October 2014. I was disappointed to read that customers you felt were Standard Class were travelling in the First Class carriage.



There are occasions when the Conductor will declassify the train to allow this to happen, but this was not the case on your journey and I am sorry that these customers were not asked to leave the carriage. We do expect all our Conductors to carry out their ticket checking duties but there are times when due to customer numbers it is not possible for them to make it through the train. We do have a formal process in place, which requires the Conductor to inform our control centre when this happens so that we can monitor services and, where feasible, utilise our Revenue Protection team to assist. Even with the best efforts of the Conductor it is often difficult to discourage a small minority from travelling without valid tickets.



We understand that the solution to this problem is a balance of good customer service and reinforcement of the policy. Conductors are currently asked to take names and addresses from passengers who refuse to move and, where this is not possible, complete a report outlining the extent of the issue. We would, however, discourage staff from risking their own safety and that of other passengers by creating a confrontational situation. They work closely with the Revenue Protection team and the British Transport Police to ensure that prosecutions are achieved for regular offenders and we have successfully prosecuted a number of customers for fare evasion and will continue to enforce the policy.



I do hope that you now feel confident that we do take the matter of passengers travelling with invalid tickets seriously; I will ensure that the specifics of your journey are passed onto the relevant managers so that when they are planning Revenue Protection campaigns they are aware of services that are require attention.



Yours sincerely



Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx

Customer Relations Advisor

No Vouchers then

 

[djjawuk]

The annoyance I have with the leaflet KWVR45 quotes is the wording: "We believe this [not declassifying] is a better way of managing capacity throughout the train".

No it isn't - it's a better way of avoiding paying compensation to first class ticket holders who can't sit down because First is full of standard class ticket holders.

The best way of managing capacity would be to provide adequate capacity on the train.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The annoyance I have with the leaflet KWVR45 quotes is the wording: "We believe this [not declassifying] is a better way of managing capacity throughout the train".

No it isn't - it's a better way of avoiding paying compensation to first class ticket holders who can't sit down because First is full of standard class ticket holders.

The best way of managing capacity would be to provide adequate capacity on the train.

Which might be possible if they had an adequate amount of rolling stock. But they do not, due to DfT policy. And 18 carriages are going next year, so the overcrowding situation will only get worse for somebody.