Declassified First Class: Compensation Procedures?

[Ivo]

On December 15th I travelled on a First Class Advance from Bath Spa to London Paddington (and beyond to Southend Victoria). This was on the 18:13 departure from BTH due to arrive at PAD at 19:38 (I think). However, the journey prior to this departure, the 17:43, had a failure at Bristol Temple Meads and as such did not operate any further (this journey starts back at Weston-super-Mare). As a result the 18:13 from BTH (18:00 from BRI) had to accommodate the loadings from both services, and was sbjected to two changes: one, it called additionally at Didcot Parkway, making it five minutes late thereafter; and two, more importantly, First class was officially declassified on departure from Bath Spa. This left me with a First Class on a service that although booked as having First Class accommodation had no official First Class accommodation.

What can I do about this? Speaking in person to yorkie on December 19th, I was advised to apply for compensation, but I'm not sure how to go about it in this instance? And similarly, would I be likely to get anything at all, given I had an Advance anyway?

Even if I would get £0.00 out of this, knowing what to do would be beneficial for future reference so I would thank you for any assistance

 

[SS4]

You can ask for a difference between the price of the your ticket and the equivalent standard class ticket since there is judged to have been no first class seating on the train.
I don't have the latest avantix so someone else will be able to tell you the difference.

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the
equivalent) shown in the National Rail timetable is not available on any train you travel in,
you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard
class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

 

[Flamingo]

But the First Class accommodation was available, it was just that people on standard class tickets were being allowed sit in there as well. Were you unable to get a seat in the First Class carriages?

 

[yorkie]

Simply write to FGW, enclose your tickets, and in theory you should get the difference in price... however there is a slight complication here in that I am unsure what ticket would be judged to be the applicable ticket to discount the price to.. it could be argued to be the cheapest standard ticket for immediate travel (which would likely get you nothing back as you had a First Advance) but it could also be argued to be the equivalent price level of Standard Advance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the First Class accommodation was available, it was just that people on standard class tickets were being allowed sit in there as well. Were you unable to get a seat in the First Class carriages?

It may depend on whether First Class was officially declassified or not. For example if some people were given a free upgrade or the guard did not get around to charging people who wished to upgrade, then I do not see how that could possibly be an issue, but if it is announced as being declassified then there is effectively no First Class accommodation provided

 

[causton]

But the First Class accommodation was available, it was just that people on standard class tickets were being allowed sit in there as well.

First class was officially declassified on departure

I believe that if First Class is declassified it is actually not First Class accommodation. 'Oh yes, that's still First Class accommodation, you can just... erm... get in there with any old ticket!' ...?

 

[scotsman]

You can ask for a difference between the price of the your ticket and the equivalent standard class ticket since there is judged to have been no first class seating on the train.
I don't have the latest avantix so someone else will be able to tell you the difference.

Never used redspottyhanky.com before?

 

[34D]

I believe that if First Class is declassified it is actually not First Class accommodation. 'Oh yes, that's still First Class accommodation, you can just... erm... get in there with any old ticket!' ...?

Did you get first class snacks? Paper? I forget what FGW's offer is

 

[ALEMASTER]

Send your tickets in to their customer relations on a complaints form

 

[yorkie]

Never used redspottyhanky.com before?

We can't answer the question, RSH may help but would be tricky.

There will be different levels of Advance fare.

We do not know what price Ivo paid (and it is unclear to me if the ticket was to Southend or London Terminals; I understand the journey is to Southend but a combination of tickets may have been purchased and the opening sentence is ambiguous), Avantix Traveller would be able to tell us what price band that was. RSH would not, though extensive time consuming searching may produce an accurate estimate. It is not clear if the correct comparison is to compare the equivalent pricing band (and what if there are more std bands than 1st bands?), what if when Ivo bought the ticket, the cheapest Std advance was £22 and the cheapest 1st ticket was £25? How will we, or FGW, even know the answer to that?

As I do not know how it is calculated, or what prices were paid, or what the destination on the ticket in question was, this is all incredibly hypothetical!

 

[Ivo]

Send your tickets in to their customer relations on a complaints form

If the last time I did that is anything to go by the response will be the following:

"The Train Manager declared that First Class accommodation was no longer classified as such after departure from Bath Spa. However, you had a valid ticket which you used in First Class and were able to access your reserved seat. Thus, no compensation is due."

Note the omission of the words "SORRY", "APOLOGIES" and "APOLOGISE".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ticket details:

1ST AP YNG; Bath Spa to Southend Stns @ £20.15
The equivalent STD fare is £7.90 (cheapest possible Advance fare as with the 1ST ticket I actually had)

The equivalent fares as far as Paddington only, i.e. the affected portion, are £16.15 or £6.25 - £9.90 difference.

 

[yorkie]

I think you quite possibly are entitled to £9.90, but it could cost you that in time spent contacting FGW and persuading them to compensate you (especially if their last reply is anything to go by). I am not certain though; there is no mention of this in the FGW Passengers Charter and I am struggling to find anything of relevance in the NRCoC.

It would of course be good customer service to do this and many TOCs would issue a refund if no official First Class accommodation was provided, but I am uncertain if they are obliged to do this. Perhaps someone like AlterEgo may be best placed to answer this.

Although I am not a fan of calculating ticket value by time, I would consider the upgrade value (only) from Std to 1st to be based (partly) on time, but for a journey of around an hour and a half I don't think I would pay more than twice the price in 1st class (on East Coast they gave up the at seat service 1 hour before arrival into KGX on my last journey). I think if FGW are not going to compensate for this, I would simply go in Std in future and spend the £13ish difference on something more worthwhile than in FGWs pockets in future! (Sorry, I realise this last paragraph isn't particularly helpful to your situation!)

 

[John @ home]

I think you quite possibly are entitled to £9.90, ... I am not certain though; there is no mention of this in the FGW Passengers Charter and I am struggling to find anything of relevance in the NRCoC.

Some TOCs mention compensation when First Class is declassified.

When the conductor says the train is declassified what does this mean?

Sometimes, particularly at peak travelling times, we are unable to provide enough space in Standard class for the many customers who wish to use our services. At such times, the Conductor may decide that for the particularly busy part of that journey customers can sit anywhere on the train. This is called 'declassifying' the train. When this happens if you are have paid for a full class season ticket, you can claim a refund of the difference between First and Standard class travel for the affected part of the journey. This can be claimed as a cash refund by visiting the retail outlet that issued your ticket or by sending a copy of your season ticket to our Customer Relations Team for a refund in Rail Travel Vouchers. They can be reached at First TransPennine Express, Customer Relations, ADMAIL 3878, FREEPOST, Manchester, M1 9YB.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/site-help/

Oddly, this seems to limit TPE compensation to season ticket holders only. I assume full class is a typo for First Class.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would of course be good customer service to do this and many TOCs would issue a refund if no official First Class accommodation was provided, but I am uncertain if they are obliged to do this. Perhaps someone like AlterEgo may be best placed to answer this.

The TOC I work for will issue a monetary refund for the difference between equivalent fares.

For example, a Preston-Glasgow journey:

FCS (Advance 1st tier) @ £36.00
VCS (Advance Std tier) @ £12.50

Difference = £23.50

There isn't anything specific in the NRCoC about what you're entitled to if First Class is declassified, so I don't believe you could easily compel a TOC to issue compensation.

That said, I'm surprised to hear FGW have refused this fairly reasonable request in the past.

 

[mountainmike]

I've experienced this with three different operators. In all cases I was travelling on 1st advanced tickets. Virgin and Nat Express East Coast both sent me vouchers for slightly more than the difference between what I had paid and the cheapest standard advanced ticket for the journey . TPE gave me a full refund - although as I was travelling only from Burneside to Manchester it was only around £13 IIRC. In all cases the train was declassified en route so I had actually had the benefit of free tea/ biscuits etc on NXEC and TPE and tea, drinks and food on Virgin. So I suppose it was a bit cheeky to ask for any money back but for the price of a stamp and a few minutes writing a letter it was worth it.
Slightly OT but TPE is very good with refunds generally. I travel from Burneside on the Windermere branch to Euston maybe 25 times each way a year usually on an advance first. The connection at Oxenholme is often quite tight and despite only being on TPE for 4 miles on the 3 occasions I've missed connections due to late running TPE in the up direction they have given me a full refund on the entire journey. Very impressed especially as it usually only leads to you being just over an hour late in London and as it is only leisure travel I'm not time sensitive and a free trip is always welcome.

 

[transportphoto]

Playing devils advocate: But you used First Class (if that's what you call it on 321s) between LST and Southend?

TP

 

[AlterEgo]

Playing devils advocate: But you used First Class (if that's what you call it on 321s) between LIV and Southend?

TP

That's a long journey on a 321!

I think you mean LST. (Liverpool Street)

LIV = Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[transportphoto]

That's a long journey on a 321!

I think you mean LST. (Liverpool Street)

LIV = Liverpool Lime Street.

Yes... sorry Why don't I know the code for my 'local' London Terminal! I didn't type it fully as the journey had already been explained above!

Edited Accordingly

TP

 

[Mojo]

I received compensation from FGW for the half difference between the FOR I held, and an SOR, when First class was declassified on one of their services about three/four years ago.

 

[ng1980]

I received compensation from FGW for the half difference between the FOR I held, and an SOR, when First class was declassified on one of their services about three/four years ago.

So have FGW changed their ideas of customer service, or did you flutter your eyelashes in that case?

 

[Flamingo]

I received compensation from FGW for the half difference between the FOR I held, and an SOR, when First class was declassified on one of their services about three/four years ago.

About 3-4 years ago, FGW were very touchy-feely about everything, as there was so much bad publicity. Times (and management) change.

If the last time I did that is anything to go by the response will be the following:

"The Train Manager declared that First Class accommodation was no longer classified as such after departure from Bath Spa. However, you had a valid ticket which you used in First Class and were able to access your reserved seat. Thus, no compensation is due."

I refer the honourable member to my original answer.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[wintonian]

What would happen if say you boarded a train at Plymouth and were going to London and first class was only declassified from reading onwards?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There is now an automated announcement on the TPE Class 185's, which the Guard can select, which says "Due to the high number of customers using this service today, the first class accommodation is now declassified, until further notice, and is available for the use of standard class ticket holders. First Class ticket holders are entitled to claim compensation for the part of the journey that has been declassified. Claim forms are available from staffed stations, or by contacting First.Transpennine Express Customer Relations.". There is a "re-classified" auto announcement as well.

As I believe TPE Customer Relations is in the same office as FGW Customer Relations, I suspect the answer would probably be the same from both. Besides, NRCOC seems clear enough on the matter.

 

[telstarbox]

If FC is declassified on TPE, what happens with the free refreshments?

 

[All Line Rover]

If FC is declassified on TPE, what happens with the free refreshments?

If it has been necessary to declassify First Class, I doubt the trolley (which has selected free refreshments for First Class customers) could get through the train anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the last time I did that is anything to go by the response will be the following:

"The Train Manager declared that First Class accommodation was no longer classified as such after departure from Bath Spa. However, you had a valid ticket which you used in First Class and were able to access your reserved seat. Thus, no compensation is due."

Note the omission of the words "SORRY", "APOLOGIES" and "APOLOGISE".

If I received that response I would complain to FGW and, if nothing happened, complain to Passenger Focus.

If you pay for a First Class ticket and travel on a train which the timetable indicates has First Class accommodation, you expect to travel in First Class accommodation. If First Class is declassified, there isn't any First Class accommodation. You aren't getting what you paid for, so you expect a refund of the difference in price between your First Class ticket and the equivalent Standard Class ticket. How hard can it be? :roll:

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If FC is declassified on TPE, what happens with the free refreshments?

The trolley is normally parked in the trolley bay in first class anyway. If it is, and folk aren't standing down the aisle getting in the way, then the trolley staff will often still give the free tea and biscuits to those with First Class tickets (they will ask to see a first class ticket). If they are not there, and are trapped elsewhere, then they obviously cannot give anything out.