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There’s not really scope for Avanti to ditch First Class altogether, because they’d then lose all the ORCATS money that sloshes into them on first class tickets valid on their routes.
I don't think that this would materially change ORCATS distributions. There might be a handful of flows such as PRE-GLC/EDB where it might change things (because, AIUI, availability of first class is used as a weighting factor, as with the number of booked seats). But the majority of flows, and certainly the vast majority by revenue, would be unaffected.
Given that there aren't any OAOs on the WCML, ORCATS distribution is (or at least should be) immaterial anyway in an NRC/GBR world.
I have to admit I have found the service to be quite good - plenty of drinks offered and always two rounds of food choices during the GLA/EUS run. Limited choice for sure but always something that is okay.
I found the food to be very good however it really depended on the staff themselves. I had one member of staff twice within a two week period who recognised me and took the time to come and talk, really making me feel welcome. I got extra food as well although if I was the passanger opposite me I would be pretty annoyed.
One member of staff on a different service appeared just to not care and act like you asking for food was a chore to get them out of their seat. You could tell by the presentation as they had just dumped it onto the plate out of the microwave.
The offering is still pretty good though and I would imagine not having first class would cut away at quite a few jobs. I guess it would mean no more group chats in the kitchen in coach K...
Personally I wouldn't be keen in Standard Premium be becoming the only First option. On Avanti, I value the no hassle food and drink service given to First whilst the high numbers of staff patrolling the coach keep things nice and quiet. SP also helps as it takes many of the leisure customers who, in my experience, may tend to be a little louder when off to their hols. Like many, my company pays so cost isn't really a concern. Choice is key IMHO.
Quiet Carriages can be useful on very long journeys but on crowded busy trains it is just not possible? I've sat in many quiet coaches on SWR and there have been many children as that's the only place with seats. But I don't mind Children can be Children.
Quiet Carriages can be useful on very long journeys but on crowded busy trains it is just not possible? I've sat in many quiet coaches on SWR and there have been many children as that's the only place with seats. But I don't mind Children can be Children.
That comes back to declassification again though essentially. If a train becomes crush loaded then a quiet journey is impossible unless first class remains enforced.
That comes back to declassification again though essentially. If a train becomes crush loaded then a quiet journey is impossible unless first class remains enforced.
I think most would regard that in such circumstances it's best everyone gets a degraded journey (with a partial refund if appropriate) than some get left on the platform. Only really XC seems to disagree.
I think most would regard that in such circumstances it's best everyone gets a degraded journey (with a partial refund if appropriate) than some get left on the platform. Only really XC seems to disagree.
Its markedly different from every other facet of our society though isn't it? Generally, in most areas, we pay for a service at the level or standard we wish to receive it. We all make those calls day in, day out. So why doesn't it apply to trains?
On a "crushed" train, or one where people were going to be left behind, people can choose to upgrade to First and thus not suffer those consequences. IMHO that would be more equitable than declassifying. The guard could easily invite people to take a seat on First and s/he would be around to collect upgrade fares shortly.
There’s not really scope for Avanti to ditch First Class altogether, because they’d then lose all the ORCATS money that sloshes into them on first class tickets valid on their routes.
Its markedly different from every other facet of our society though isn't it? Generally, in most areas, we pay for a service at the level or standard we wish to receive it. We all make those calls day in, day out. So why doesn't it apply to trains?
On a "crushed" train, or one where people were going to be left behind, people can choose to upgrade to First and thus not suffer those consequences. IMHO that would be more equitable than declassifying. The guard could easily invite people to take a seat on First and s/he would be around to collect upgrade fares shortly.
Best not fly then, as they don't let business class seats go out empty if there's "bumped" passengers waiting there, they give their gold cardholders upgrades to free up economy seats for the "bumped".
You are entitled to ONE seat. If you have got that seat (and any other ancillary service which was part of the offering) you have what you paid for. That the TOC gives you some money back in some cases is a way rail is better than air, it could just upgrade people into the other seats with no benefit to you at all.
I observed a diverse range of people using first class, most were businessmen/women who appreciated the tables and quiet atmosphere. However, lots of leisure travelers use first as well as a treat. I would say that 30% had seatfrog upgrades. One train I was on had a whole team of workers conducting a meeting, something which would not really be viable in standard.
When was this, because let me tell you now, about 10% of Avanti services offer Seatfrog since SP was introduced - and actually, that number looks to have been reduced to 0% in the past months “because SP is available instead.”
Oh is it? Oh yes - only that’s about £30 from London to Glasgow with no food, drink or lounge across two coaches, and for £20 Seatfrog I’d get wined and dined full service first - with reasonably spread space across the four coaches - and get a nice lounge to wait in.
Exactly. @Bletchleyite I know you’re keen to have a European style first class with no flipparies but the complimentaries are definitely the selling point for many and this is why Avanti is bigging up first class so. Hilarious considering their “upgraded” first class menu with no hot options is a massive downgrade on Virgin’s original first class menu. I said one hundred times that First would cheapen what Virgin have established and was completely right.
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I found the food to be very good however it really depended on the staff themselves. I had one member of staff twice within a two week period who recognised me and took the time to come and talk, really making me feel welcome. I got extra food as well although if I was the passanger opposite me I would be pretty annoyed.
One member of staff on a different service appeared just to not care and act like you asking for food was a chore to get them out of their seat. You could tell by the presentation as they had just dumped it onto the plate out of the microwave.
The offering is still pretty good though and I would imagine not having first class would cut away at quite a few jobs. I guess it would mean no more group chats in the kitchen in coach K...
Those dishes do look lovely and I’ll admit getting a complimentary hot meal is massively part of the attraction to me (whether technically worth it or not) but the issue is being crammed into 1.5 coaches or sometimes god forbid just Coach K means you’re more likely to be crammed in next to and opposite someone else than in standard, and sitting with three others at a table fighting for legroom and armrest/table space just isn’t what you want from a premium product.
I think most would regard that in such circumstances it's best everyone gets a degraded journey (with a partial refund if appropriate) than some get left on the platform. Only really XC seems to disagree.
I was at Banbury travelling southwards recently. The previous train an hour earlier had been cancelled and the next XC was running 35 min late and was only five coaches.
We were advised that the train was "full and standing" and not to board. Given that I'd already been waiting 95 minutes I was going to board the train anyway, which I did. As the train pulled in I noted the 1st Class was largely empty, while Standard class was of course totally rammed.
Quiet Carriages can be useful on very long journeys but on crowded busy trains it is just not possible? I've sat in many quiet coaches on SWR and there have been many children as that's the only place with seats. But I don't mind Children can be Children.
That’s a very tolerant approach but in my opinion a considerate parent who knows their child will be loud will not sit with them in the quiet zone if they can help it.
That’s a very tolerant approach but in my opinion a considerate parent who knows their child will be loud will not sit with them in the quiet zone if they can help it.
There is a difference between kids naturally being kids - laughing, playing and chatting - and parents playing entertainment devices out loud for them, of course, The latter is badly behaved parents, which is why I have no time for it.
I don’t think you’re technically entitled to a seat, unless you have a reservation. Even then reservations can be disallowed if trains are busy/during disruption.
There is a difference between kids naturally being kids - laughing, playing and chatting - and parents playing entertainment devices out loud for them, of course, The latter is badly behaved parents, which is why I have no time for it.
I don’t think you’re technically entitled to a seat, unless you have a reservation. Even then reservations can be disallowed if trains are busy/during disruption.
Some TOCs will refund down to Standard if you don't get a seat in 1st, so I think that technically is true for 1st. However the point I'm making is that there is no entitlement, express or implied, to a half empty coach, nor to it being quiet unless it's a quiet coach (I'm sure others have experienced a hen* do in 1st!)
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Oh is it? Oh yes - only that’s about £30 from London to Glasgow with no food, drink or lounge across two coaches, and for £20 Seatfrog I’d get wined and dined full service first - with reasonably spread space across the four coaches - and get a nice lounge to wait in.
The trouble with that is that only charging a £20 uplift for that is a loss leader - it will cost them more than that to provide it in staff time and materials as well as floorspace taken up. You certainly benefit from it but it's not a viable business model and shows a failure of yield management.
Are you willing to pay say a £100 uplift? That more reflects the offering. Maybe even £200+ if you're talking aiming for 50% loading.
Oh is it? Oh yes - only that’s about £30 from London to Glasgow with no food, drink or lounge across two coaches, and for £20 Seatfrog I’d get wined and dined full service first - with reasonably spread space across the four coaches - and get a nice lounge to wait in.
I don’t think you’re technically entitled to a seat, unless you have a reservation. Even then reservations can be disallowed if trains are busy/during disruption.
What's not explicitly defined is the compensation for not having your reservation honoured. A few TOCs have something about this in their Charter but many do not.
Best not fly then, as they don't let business class seats go out empty if there's "bumped" passengers waiting there, they give their gold cardholders upgrades to free up economy seats for the "bumped".
You are entitled to ONE seat. If you have got that seat (and any other ancillary service which was part of the offering) you have what you paid for. That the TOC gives you some money back in some cases is a way rail is better than air, it could just upgrade people into the other seats with no benefit to you at all.
I don't thibk I have ever asked for more than one seat. My point is, rather than declassify, why can't those seeking to sit in First class just pay to upgrade?
The business class flying example doesn't really compare - business class isn't declassified under such circumstances and service continues as advertised.
I don't thibk I have ever asked for more than one seat. My point is, rather than declassify, why can't those seeking to sit in First class just pay to upgrade?
The business class flying example doesn't really compare - business class isn't declassified under such circumstances and service continues as advertised.
It does compare, because the people they upgrade into Business are not paying to upgrade either.
What you're more saying is something like "why can't they let people in up to the seating capacity and have stewards look at the tickets to see if they are entitied to the freebies?" - and I indeed don't entirely get why they don't do that rather than blanket-declassifying, unless the reason for the blanket declassification is an absence of staff to provide that service.
That or you're just being "funny" about "he paid less than me", in which case definitely don't go near an aircraft, as business class will contain people, on a long haul, who have paid £250*, £1000 and £10,000 in the same cabin.
AIUI if first class is full (rare but I’m sure its happened) you are entitled to a partial refund, but not to insist on a seat. Reservations, as above: I was on a GWR service recently where the guard announced that seat reservations weren’t being honoured due to disruption leading to overcrowding.
The NRCoT seems slightly ambiguous on whether you are entitled to a refund in circumstances where you are entitled to a seat by having a standard class reservation but have to stand anyway.
Of course then there’s the classic “someone was in my seat but refused to move”… I can’t imagine refunds are allowed in this circumstance as it would often be difficult to evidence?
It does compare, because the people they upgrade into Business are not paying to upgrade either.
What you're more saying is something like "why can't they let people in up to the seating capacity and have stewards look at the tickets to see if they are entitied to the freebies?" - and I indeed don't entirely get why they don't do that rather than blanket-declassifying, unless the reason for the blanket declassification is an absence of staff to provide that service.
You are imposing a classiest element that simply doesn't exist. I don't care what anyone has or hasn't paid to sit in First - I care about the service and environment within the First class compartment - for me the deal breaker is an ability to work. In my experience of a declassified compartment that is impossible.
The way to avoid it is that the guard invites people to upgrade.
I don't care what anyone has or hasn't paid to sit in First - I care about the service and environment within the First class compartment - for me the deal breaker is an ability to work. In my experience of a declassified compartment that is impossible.
I have been a regular standard class traveller - and will still use it on the rare occasion I use a train for leisure purposes. I have never found the environment acceptable to work in though.
I do think the "classes" should be renamed into something more suitable for modern Britain. Perhaps "Business Gold", "Standard Premium" and "Standard Saver" or similar.
I have been a regular standard class traveller - and will still use it on the rare occasion I use a train for leisure purposes. I have never found the environment acceptable to work in though.
I do think the "classes" should be renamed into something more suitable for modern Britain. Perhaps "Business Gold", "Standard Premium" and "Standard Saver" or similar.
I do think the "classes" should be renamed into something more suitable for modern Britain. Perhaps "Business Gold", "Standard Premium" and "Standard Saver" or similar.
Why are first and standard not “suitable for modern Britain”? They’re straightforward and people know what they’re getting. The other suggestions are ambiguous and sound like corporate waffle.
Why are first and standard not “suitable for modern Britain”? They’re straightforward and people know what they’re getting. The other suggestions are ambiguous and sound like corporate waffle.
I think social hierarchies are perceived to be flatter thsn they used to be (whether they are or not is another debate...). Terminology changes would align with approaches in other industries, e.g. airline industry.
Its markedly different from every other facet of our society though isn't it? Generally, in most areas, we pay for a service at the level or standard we wish to receive it. We all make those calls day in, day out. So why doesn't it apply to trains?
On a "crushed" train, or one where people were going to be left behind, people can choose to upgrade to First and thus not suffer those consequences. IMHO that would be more equitable than declassifying. The guard could easily invite people to take a seat on First and s/he would be around to collect upgrade fares shortly.
Because the railway is providing an essential public service. Those folks paid for a ticket so they should be able to board the train at the time they wish. If that requires declassifying first class then so be it. Getting everyone to their destination on time is more important than the comfort of a minority of people in first class.
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