December 2026 Timetable Change

[Llandudno]

7 boxes if I recall as well, including Egginton gate box.

That sounds costly, hopefully DafT and the Treasury don’t find out…!

 

[Mattplans]

It isn't 100% confirmed, but the extra 2tph on the London Overground between Highbury and Islington and Crystal Palace should be starting from December 2026 - I do wonder if these services might lead to the demise of Southern's London Bridge to Norwood Junction peak extras, as at least southbound, the "missing" paths on the East London Line that the extra LO services will likely slot into would directly place them into the path of these services between New Cross Gate and Sydenham.

Very good. I hope we will move towards a regular Southern/Thameslink service from New Cross Gate to London Bridge in the future; and passengers on the Sydenham corridor can funnel through to there and interchange for London Bridge and beyond. The ELL is good but it's orbital, most commuters need Central London directly, and a diversion via the East End and North London is little consolation

 

[Chiltern006]

Probably a silly question but regarding the SE metro services - does this mean that stations between Orpington and Sevenoaks will get 4TPH, if so, how?

 

[Mattplans]

Probably a silly question but regarding the SE metro services - does this mean that stations between Orpington and Sevenoaks will get 4TPH, if so, how?

No not looking like that at the moment. They may reinstate calls on the CHX - Tunb Wells at these stations (which might also provide a fast service in the future) but there's nothing to suggest that any of the services currently terminating at Orpington will be extended to Sevenoaks to form 4tph.

It doesn't look like CHX-Tunb Wells is set to return (all day) in the next timetable either

 

[cle]

So there will be 2tph Moorgate WGC and then 2tph WGC Thameslink (stopper) on the slows, all day.

Will they be an even 15 min service north of Ally Pally to Welwyn? Will those AP calls go from the semi fasts?

 

[Stephen42]

No not looking like that at the moment. They may reinstate calls on the CHX - Tunb Wells at these stations (which might also provide a fast service in the future) but there's nothing to suggest that any of the services currently terminating at Orpington will be extended to Sevenoaks to form 4tph.

It doesn't look like CHX-Tunb Wells is set to return (all day) in the next timetable either

Laura Trott (MP for Sevenoaks) stated in March that Sevenoaks will have 6 fast services throughout the day. In the peak shoulders there's 2tph for Hastings, Tunbridge Wells and via Ashford. I'd expect the additional 2tph to be running the Tunbridge Wells all day.

The 4tph is for via Grove Park rather than all the way to Sevenoaks. The Sevenoaks stoppers were previously only 3tph in the days of 20/22 minute peak cycles. The Tunbridge Wells trains didn't make additional calls (aside from perhaps Chelsfield during peak).

The only changes for the 4tph metro Monday to Saturdays is the Orpington to Victoria stoppers on Saturday. Bromley North is excluded but will receive 4tph at peak times using two drivers for quicker turnarounds. The additional rounders and Charing Cross to Bexleyheath trains are giving 6tph Monday to Saturday on three Dartford routes. There's been several improvements advertised to relevant stakeholders like the 6tph fast at Sevenoaks which don't appear in the Southeastern press releases.

 

[PGAT]

See my comment below from yesterday, if the Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks was going to run all day in December, it would’ve be been in the press release

Not every improvement will necessarily see comprehensive reporting

 

[OneOfThe48]

Not every improvement will necessarily see comprehensive reporting

I think that type of change would get that billing, but fine, let’s come back to this later this year

 

[Stephen42]

I think that type of change would get that billing, but fine, let’s come back to this later this year

For the gov press release timetable improvements have been condensed down. It doesn't mention Hertford North by name either, they've focused on bigger sounding Gatwick Express change that's much lower impact when considering other brands.

It does seem to be only the Enfield user group seem to be reporting it at the moment. While haven't verified it, the Riddlesdown Residents' Association appear to have posted a GTR stakeholder newsletter to Facebook here. Relevant quote:

From December, doubling the number of Gatwick Express train services to four non-stop trains each hour between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria and uplifting the Off-Peak service on the Great Northern metro route to Hertford North to four trains an hour Monday to Saturday

That it's not mentioned there might mean it's not happening or will only be boosted at specific times.

 

[SeanM1997]

East Midlands reported to be delivering various improvements including an all day Sunday service between Derby and Crewe.

This would be good - wonder what agreement they've reached over level crossings on the route. It would also mean a significant increase between Crewe and Stoke on Sunday mornings which will be beneficial.


Another alteration consistently rumoured is LNWR extending the current Crewe - Stoke - Stafford service northwards to Manchester Airport (replacing Northern Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly), and southwards to Birmingham New Street via Willenhall. If happens, it would mean quite a shuffle for services in Crewe - and be interesting if this would operate 7 days a week, what happens to the late night Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly services, and the implications for the Northern operated destinations on the route.

A key benefit of LNWR is relieving pressure on CrossCountry between Stoke and Birmingham - as they are very busy services.

Additionally, the first Bee Network routes are expected from December 2026 - starting with Manchester Piccadilly - Stalybridge & Glossop

Say yellow to the Bee Network

The Bee Network is Greater Manchester's vision to deliver a joined-up London-style transport system, with buses beginning to be integrated from 2023.

tfgm.com

This year you can look forward to:

• New zero-emission buses, brand new bus routes and more buses during the day, evening and weekends.
• New night bus services so that every area of Greater Manchester has a 24/7 service (Thursday to Saturday).
• Integrating the first commuter rail lines with the Bee Network – improved services, stations, contactless payments and a better journey experience. See the rail timeline.
• New high quality active travel routes to make walking, cycling and wheeling safer and easier.
• More investment in improving journeys and making travel easier for everyone on key routes.

 

[physics34]

How completely pointless, considering those extra trains will likely be carrying around fresh air as people have gotten wise to how much of a rip-off Gatwick Express is.

Yes not a good start for the nationalised company. They are lightly used barring rush hours and infact at weekends they really need to stop at clapham or east croydon to take the pressure off southern services. 8 car 387s could infact be more useful on east croydon to watfords.
I would say more changes will occur in the next year or so.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes not a good start for the nationalised company. They are lightly used barring rush hours and infact at weekends they really need to stop at clapham or east croydon to take the pressure off southern services. 8 car 387s could infact be more useful on east croydon to watfords.
I would say more changes will occur in the next year or so.

Gatwick Express need the same fare as everyone else as the Southerns are often full and standing in the middle of the day causing longer dwell times at C.Jcn and E.Croydon. These could then be relieved of much of the airport traffic making them more pleasant for the longer distance travellers.

 

[bramling]

So there will be 2tph Moorgate WGC and then 2tph WGC Thameslink (stopper) on the slows, all day.
Will they be an even 15 min service north of Ally Pally to Welwyn? Will those AP calls go from the semi fasts?

If Welwyn-Sevenoaks does happen it would pretty much have to be in the same path/timings as what currently runs in the peaks.

This would leave Welham Green and Brookmans Park (and probably Hadley Wood) with 2tph, which was what they had in 2018. IMO 2tph is perfectly adequate for these stations.

This is all a bit ahead of the gun though. GTR have stated Hertford is happening, they haven’t said anything about Welwyn. Also remember that the Welwyn route has always been the quieter of the two off-peak, and already has 4tph if you include the Cambridge services.

 

[jimbo99]

Reinstating the service to what it was prior to COVID-19 and any passengers using it will be paying a premium fare, so revenue will go up which is what they are desperate for.

(of the Gatwick Express)

I suppose if they are desperate, they could always resume the practice of "fibbing" and at Gatwick station showing non-Gatwick Express Victoria-bound trains as terminating at "Clapham Junction" and/or charge people the GatEx fare regardless of which train they catch.

 

[nw1]

Gatwick Express need the same fare as everyone else as the Southerns are often full and standing in the middle of the day causing longer dwell times at C.Jcn and E.Croydon. These could then be relieved of much of the airport traffic making them more pleasant for the longer distance travellers.

I agree, there isn't anything wrong in theory with a dedicated 4tph shuttle - paths permitting - but it should stop at Clapham Junction and its main raison d'etre should be to segregate airport and South Coast traffic, to relieve overcrowding on the South Coast services. It should also have the same fare as everything else - having a premium fare might have made sense in the days that GatEx was a premium service (i.e. the 73s+IC stock era) but nowadays there's nothing premium about it that I can see.

 

[rmHawk765]

The GX premium pricing should have ceased to exist ages ago, and it doesn't make sense to have the (almost) sole Victoria-Brighton service branded as GX. I honestly can understand the sense in making it 4tph to alleviate SN crowding but the press release makes it clear this isn't the reason they're doing it.

That it's not mentioned there might mean it's not happening or will only be boosted at specific times.

This will still leave New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and New Barnet with only a 2tph off-peak service, which all are fairly well used and all received 4tph all day in 2019. I can fully see why they'd rather make Sevenoaks all day than run 4tph Moorgate-Welwyn all day, it bumps the ECML service from the TL core to 6tph all day at the same time without any particular negatives. 'Boosting at specific times' is how the service currently operates.

It does seem to be only the Enfield user group seem to be reporting it at the moment. While haven't verified it, the Riddlesdown Residents' Association appear to have posted a GTR stakeholder newsletter to Facebook here. Relevant quote:

(See mentioned quote) It would be a bit disappointing to see only 2tph to Hertford on Sundays - while this was the service in 2019 it's important to consider that Sunday travel has increased quite significantly, and these trains are often quite packed on Sunday evenings.

they've focused on bigger sounding Gatwick Express change that's much lower impact when considering other brands.

Aka a very money-grab change, compared to offering the bog standard 4tph off peak to a busy London commuter route... over 5 years since the lockdowns ended. There are so many trains fast to Gatwick from London. Seriously though, this pocket of North London has pretty terrible Tube connections (look at Enfield for example) and somehow gets some of the worst NR services in London too, in terms of service levels and overcrowding.

The negligence in terms of GN services as a whole post COVID is astounding honestly. Look at Cambridge, the timetable is still broken with trains not splitting in time, and the Brighton service ceases to exist at the slightest hint of disruption.

 

[cle]

This is all a bit ahead of the gun though. GTR have stated Hertford is happening, they haven’t said anything about Welwyn. Also remember that the Welwyn route has always been the quieter of the two off-peak, and already has 4tph if you include the Cambridge services.

Hmm.... PB / Hatfield / WGC all have counter and off-peak demand, ie inbound due to the jobs, uni, shopping... at those places. More than Hertford - which is the only real place of note on that line. Admittedly the London ends are busier...

But I'm surprised. I'd make Thameslink a stopper in that case, so 4tph all stations to Finsbury Park - and then the Cambridges on top for the busier stations. Peaks should add 2-4tph to Moorgate so that the combined service gets to 10-12tph as it should be, for the inner section.

 

[rmHawk765]

Hmm.... PB / Hatfield / WGC all have counter and off-peak demand, ie inbound due to the jobs, uni, shopping... at those places. More than Hertford - which is the only real place of note on that line.

'Only real place of note' - Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield Chase and Gordon Hill all have over 1 mil annual passengers to the best of my knowledge. It's a busy outer London commuter line as much as it is the 'Hertford' Loop and therefore the current level of service is unacceptable.

For reference, the reason why supplying these stations with a turn-up-and-go service all day is more important is that they have comparatively poor Tube connections. Either the nearest Tube station is just way too far (look at Enfield Town, which also has a lot of off peak demand for the same reasons you mention, and is in this very situation), or the train is substantially faster than getting a bus to the Tube, as is for Winchmore Hill for example. For New Southgate and New Barnet, this isn't as much of an issue - New Southgate is close to Arnos Grove on the Piccadilly and New Barnet to High Barnet on the Northern. Only Oakleigh Park, a quieter station compared to the Hertford Loop, is somewhat far from a better served Tube station. But nonetheless, the mainline route is always much faster and a 4tph all day service which already rises to 6tph at peak is nothing to be scoffed at given the speed. It's just that it is slightly less of a priority than the Loop.

4tph all-day would be a standard on these routes under basically any other London operator (SWR, SN, SE etc) and it's ridiculous that the route always has some pretty big problems. It used to be the 313s not coping at peak and frequent cancellations, now it's an unacceptable off-peak service and overcrowding at peak because the 6tph service there also isn't good enough anymore, particularly for Hertford (mind you, it was 8tph in 2019 and in other years too).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

'Only real place of note' - Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield Chase and Gordon Hill all have over 1 mil annual passengers to the best of my knowledge. It's a busy outer London commuter line as much as it is the 'Hertford' Loop and therefore the current level of service is unacceptable.

For reference, the reason why supplying these stations with a turn-up-and-go service all day is more important is that they have comparatively poor Tube connections. Either the nearest Tube station is just way too far (look at Enfield Town, which also has a lot of off peak demand for the same reasons you mention, and is in this very situation), or the train is substantially faster than getting a bus to the Tube, as is for Winchmore Hill for example. For New Southgate and New Barnet, this isn't as much of an issue - New Southgate is close to Arnos Grove on the Piccadilly and New Barnet to High Barnet on the Northern. Only Oakleigh Park, a quieter station compared to the Hertford Loop, is somewhat far from a better served Tube station. But nonetheless, the mainline route is always much faster and a 4tph all day service which already rises to 6tph at peak is nothing to be scoffed at given the speed. It's just that it is slightly less of a priority than the Loop.

4tph all-day would be a standard on these routes under basically any other London operator (SWR, SN, SE etc) and it's ridiculous that the route always has some pretty big problems. It used to be the 313s not coping at peak and frequent cancellations, now it's an unacceptable off-peak service and overcrowding at peak because the 6tph service there also isn't good enough anymore, particularly for Hertford (mind you, it was 8tph in 2019 and in other years too).

Correct me if im wrong but the 717 fleet was sized to deliver this service provision so its marginal cost over the base lease charges.

 

[bramling]

I agree, there isn't anything wrong in theory with a dedicated 4tph shuttle - paths permitting - but it should stop at Clapham Junction and its main raison d'etre should be to segregate airport and South Coast traffic, to relieve overcrowding on the South Coast services. It should also have the same fare as everything else - having a premium fare might have made sense in the days that GatEx was a premium service (i.e. the 73s+IC stock era) but nowadays there's nothing premium about it that I can see.

Completely agree. It’s farcical to run a fast airport service and then price many people off it onto services which are already busy and have no alternative (though we have seen the same on the London-Birmingham and Trent Valley routes for many years as well).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2026 ==

Hmm.... PB / Hatfield / WGC all have counter and off-peak demand, ie inbound due to the jobs, uni, shopping... at those places.

Hatfield yes, but I wouldn’t say demand at Potters Bar and Welwyn GC is massive. Whilst not ideal, the current service copes. Remember there is still significantly more capacity than a generation ago - not so many years ago off-peak it would be been 9 cars of class 313 and 8 cars of 317/321/365 per hour - now it’s 12 cars of 717 and 16 cars of 387/700.

More than Hertford - which is the only real place of note on that line. Admittedly the London ends are busier...

Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill and Cuffley are all pretty busy, the others less so. Some have alternatives, some don’t.

But I'm surprised. I'd make Thameslink a stopper in that case, so 4tph all stations to Finsbury Park - and then the Cambridges on top for the busier stations.

Welham Green and Brookmans Park really don’t need 4tph.

 

[animationmilo]

Any major changes for TFW in December I wonder

 

[London Trains]

Completely agree. It’s farcical to run a fast airport service and then price many people off it onto services which are already busy and have no alternative (though we have seen the same on the London-Birmingham and Trent Valley routes for many years as well.

Spot on. If the Gatwick Express is going to exist, arguably it should actually be cheaper than the standard fare, as it would push an awful lot of people off the Eastbourne, Littlehampton and Portsmouth/Bognor Regis services and onto the GatEx, freeing up loads of capacity on those services without a single penny having to be spent on running extra services/longer trains.

 

[DS25]

Any major changes for TFW in December I wonder

Isn’t there meant to be the new Bristol service?
I doubt that TfW could deliver anymore service upgrades considering how stretched the 197 fleet is, and will probably be worse after when they take over the Cambrian.. I wonder what they will do with the 158s after the change over, hopefully from a selfish point of view we keep them for a bit longer, but I presume Northern need them more

 

[SWT_USER]

Any danger of the Hounslow loop services returning?

 

[rmHawk765]

Correct me if im wrong but the 717 fleet was sized to deliver this service provision so its marginal cost over the base lease charges.

The 717 fleet was sized for up to 10tph Hertford and 4tph Welwyn. The peak service in 2019 was 8tph Hertford and 4tph Welwyn, so pretty close to this. The 8tph peak Hertford service already needs to return to alleviate crowding and as you say the current fleet can comfortably handle it.

 

[papageno]

Isn’t there meant to be the new Bristol service?
I doubt that TfW could deliver anymore service upgrades considering how stretched the 197 fleet is, and will probably be worse after when they take over the Cambrian.. I wonder what they will do with the 158s after the change over, hopefully from a selfish point of view we keep them for a bit longer, but I presume Northern need them more

There's a bit of an argument about that. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c794pdy1jgjo

Great Western Railway has been accused by the Welsh government of trying to "disrupt" plans for new direct train services between west Wales and Bristol.
Transport for Wales (TfW), which is owned by the Welsh government, wants the services from Milford Haven or Fishguard, in Pembrokeshire, to start before the end of the year.
It hopes to run two-hourly services from Monday to Saturday, with one beginning in Cardiff and the others in the west.
But Great Western Railway (GWR), which already runs Cardiff to Bristol trains, said the proposals would have a "significant effect" on its revenue.
Under the plans, passengers from west Wales could travel straight to Bristol Temple Meads without changing at Cardiff, as they currently need to do.
In a consultation document, TfW said its aim was to "connect communities" beyond the capital to provide new opportunities for work and leisure. It hopes to introduce the services by December 2026.
GWR, which is due to be brought under public ownership later this year, currently runs two services per hour between Cardiff and Bristol, and occasionally three.
GWR said it had concerns that the plans could affect train services in the Bristol area and were "likely to have a significant effect on GWR's revenue income".
It also said the new services would mean less money for the UK government.
"It should be noted that due to its devolved status, under existing revenue allocation mechanisms the majority of the revenue growth for the industry will not return revenues directly to HM Treasury," the rail operator said.
The Rail and Road Office will make a final decision on TfW's application.
On the train from Carmarthen to Llanelli, people gave their reaction to the idea.
Miriam Kinn, who recently moved to Solva in Pembrokeshire from Bristol, said the new services "would be ideal because we [have] lots of friends [there]".
Cath Little, from Cardiff, said it would benefit people going on the ferry to Ireland from Fishguard.
"It would save changing in Cardiff so I think it's a great idea," she said.
Karen Jones, who lives in Carmarthen, agreed but said there were often problems with delays or cancelled trains.
Mark Hooper, the Welsh government's Deputy Minister for Transport, said it was "extremely disappointing" that GWR would seek to "disrupt these plans to improve things for passengers on both sides of the Severn".
He added: "If Great Western Railway's objection succeeds, it would negatively impact tens of thousands who could benefit from this service.
"I will be writing to the UK Transport Minister to urgently ask for clarification and call for some common sense on this issue."
A GWR spokesperson said: "We welcome any enhancements to provide additional levels of service for customers along a key route, but this needs to be done so as not to be detrimental to existing services or already agreed future services which will serve south Wales."

 

[bramling]

The 717 fleet was sized for up to 10tph Hertford and 4tph Welwyn. The peak service in 2019 was 8tph Hertford and 4tph Welwyn, so pretty close to this. The 8tph peak Hertford service already needs to return to alleviate crowding and as you say the current fleet can comfortably handle it.

The fleet can certainly handle it, but I’d say there would be a big question as to whether they have sufficient drivers.

 

[rmHawk765]

The fleet can certainly handle it, but I’d say there would be a big question as to whether they have sufficient drivers.

Certainly - I avoided talking about anything other than the fleet as I was replying to a message only about the fleet but my three biggest concerns would be pathing between Finsbury and Ally Pally, turnarounds at Moorgate, and driver availability.

In all fairness to GoviaTR they certainly improved the staffing situation to the point where I can say the Inners are the most reliable GN service. It's rare for a Moorgate train to be cancelled due to staffing problems now and disruption is surprisingly well handled a lot of the time. But I wouldn't push beyond 8tph peak without a proper staffing review as I honestly doubt they have enough drivers for the full 2019-envisaged service - I agree with you here.

The Hornsey/Harringay situation is honestly ridiculous - I don't get why it is so difficult to construct four new platforms and considerably increase reliability through this area on the slow lines. The issue is that there are 2 slow lines in each direction but only platforms on 1 slow line in each direction, the one on the 'inner' side for Welwyn. Currently the pathing is often silly - Welwyn peak trains often use the DS2 at Finsbury, and then have to cross back onto the DS1 at Ally Pally, the idea being there is a Hertford train on the DS1 which is overtaken. There are more Hertford trains at peak so it makes at least some sense to make those all stop instead of the Welwyns, but the crossing-over is unreliable and only exists because of a stupid constraint. Any delay as a result of this can and will spill over onto every other train on the slows, including the Letchworth/Cambridge stoppers. And of course, it also reduces capacity due to all this nonsense requiring extra time. With platforms on the US2 and DS2 trains can just logically use the correct route right from Finsbury and this is probably the only feasible way to achieve 14tph Moorgate.

Finsbury itself is a major bottleneck. It's only got 4 usable platforms despite it being the point where 14tph King's Cross merges with 6tph Thameslink and 10tph Moorgate so it becomes a massive issue when a train is delayed and blocks one of the 4 platforms. I like to call it Finsbury Delays, it's not uncommon for my Hertford train to get stuck at Platform 8 in the evening peak for 10-15 minutes because something otherwise unrelated broke and is now blocking the DS1 (those bloody Harringay/Hornsey platforms again!), which causes a massive build-up from Moorgate and will likely lead to cancellations as these trains would have no hope of being spaced out again.

As for turnarounds, I'm not really sure. All I can say is that 6tph per platform was achieved in 2019, and 7tph per platform is not a huge decrease in turnaround time.

 

[cle]

I agree, there isn't anything wrong in theory with a dedicated 4tph shuttle - paths permitting - but it should stop at Clapham Junction and its main raison d'etre should be to segregate airport and South Coast traffic, to relieve overcrowding on the South Coast services. It should also have the same fare as everything else - having a premium fare might have made sense in the days that GatEx was a premium service (i.e. the 73s+IC stock era) but nowadays there's nothing premium about it that I can see.

Ideally everything would call at both Clapham Junction and East Croydon (that flow could always do with more frequency) - and then V-CJ-EC-LGW would be a very much metro service.

But if you had to choose one, CJ - as East Croydon has many other Gatwick services. But it would be ideal if it was uniform.

'Only real place of note' - Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield Chase and Gordon Hill all have over 1 mil annual passengers to the best of my knowledge. It's a busy outer London commuter line as much as it is the 'Hertford' Loop and therefore the current level of service is unacceptable.

I meant more for inbound/counter and off peak - which was the topic. Hertford I called out as it has some jobs there. I appreciate those are busy commuter stations towards London.

 

[The exile]

I agree, there isn't anything wrong in theory with a dedicated 4tph shuttle - paths permitting - but it should stop at Clapham Junction and its main raison d'etre should be to segregate airport and South Coast traffic, to relieve overcrowding on the South Coast services. It should also have the same fare as everything else - having a premium fare might have made sense in the days that GatEx was a premium service (i.e. the 73s+IC stock era) but nowadays there's nothing premium about it that I can see.

Other than the somewhat superior stock, the “premium” elements (IMHO) were that, at least in theory, there was always a train ready to board immediately at both Gatwick and Victoria and you didn’t get the “churn” generated at East Croydon and /or Clapham Junction - which also meant you didn’t have to worry about someone walking off with your luggage.