December 2025 Timetable Change Speculation

[A S Leib]

Edit: missed that this one was the speculative thread

 

[mike57]

There's a trick missed here though.

The XC via Leeds adds over 20 minutes to journeys from York and north of, to Sheffield and south of, could you have a situation where you send more XC journeys via Doncaster, and have a 'local' York - Leeds - Wakefield - Meadowhall - Sheffield service leaving York just after the XC arrives, and feeding into the next southbound XC service at Sheffield, and reverse obviously, with XC journeys split evenly between via Leeds and via Doncaster. It might be a good compromise between offering better journey times for longer distance travellers and serving Leeds and Wakefield.

 

[The Planner]

Westgate. It will have about the same journey time as the XC service, so together they will provide a 'fast' Leeds-Sheffield service every half hour.

There's a trick missed here though. The Birmingham-Doncaster XC service remains pretty sparse, which means there are available slots from Sheffield to Birmingham. The new Leeds-Sheffield service could extend to fit into those slots and provide a big boost to the Leeds-Birmingham service.

Those slots won't get taken off XC.

 

[quantinghome]

Those slots won't get taken off XC.

Then get XC to run the service.

I guess the follow-up question is "what with?" which is a fair point. But my understanding of the Leeds-Birmingham corridor was that there wasn't a slot available in the timetable for more Leeds-Birmingham trains, and this was more of a problem than lack of rolling stock. But it now appears that a way has been made.

 

[YorksLad12]

Then get XC to run the service.

I guess the follow-up question is "what with?" which is a fair point. But my understanding of the Leeds-Birmingham corridor was that there wasn't a slot available in the timetable for more Leeds-Birmingham trains, and this was more of a problem than lack of rolling stock. But it now appears that a way has been made.

"With what?" is the same question to apply to Northern, if you extend them to Birmingham. They're taking over the Huddersfield-Leeds stopper from TPE, so two units needed there; two more for this service. Both currently diesel only, and you'd need two more (at least) to extend to Birmingham, assuming you can platform it there.

 

[bigmanaiq]

Westgate. It will have about the same journey time as the XC service, so together they will provide a 'fast' Leeds-Sheffield service every half hour.

There's a trick missed here though. The Birmingham-Doncaster XC service remains pretty sparse, which means there are available slots from Sheffield to Birmingham. The new Leeds-Sheffield service could extend to fit into those slots and provide a big boost to the Leeds-Birmingham service.

Oh right, will it just be Leeds-Westgate-Sheffield or will it have one or two additional calls at say Moorthorpe and Meadowhall as I believe there would be a strong case for that (much more the latter than the former

On the Birmingham proposal, would northern have enough stock to go that far and cover other routes at the same time while keeping up an hourly service?

 

[Bald Rick]

On the Birmingham proposal, would northern have enough stock to go that far and cover other routes at the same time while keeping up an hourly service?

No stock, nothing in their locker that is suitable even if it was spare, and no traincrew knowledge. Other than that…

 

[DDB]

It doesn't fix any or the other unsurmountable problems but there must be train crew knowledge as far as Derby as an occasional Nottingham to Sheffield goes via Derby I assume specifically to retain route knowledge for diversions.

 

[Kite159]

It doesn't fix any or the other unsurmountable problems but there must be train crew knowledge as far as Derby as an occasional Nottingham to Sheffield goes via Derby I assume specifically to retain route knowledge for diversions.

The northern via Derby service was axed a couple of years ago, similar to knowledge on the 'back road' from Chesterfield to Sheffield via Barrow Hill

 

[SeanM1997]

Crewe - Stoke (and beyond) will go from xx:10 (EM) and xx:33 (LM), to xx:26 (EM) and xx:33 (LM) and then none for 53 minutes. Surely more even spaced timings would be preferred, especially as LM is just between Crewe and Stafford so could be moved relatively easily.

East Midlands Railways will now be stationary at Crewe for 40 minutes


Additionally, not sure if the 1446 LM London Euston - Crewe & 1713 LM Crewe - London Euston is removed but is not on Real Time Trains

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Crewe - Stoke (and beyond) will go from xx:10 (EM) and xx:33 (LM), to xx:26 (EM) and xx:33 (LM) and then none for 53 minutes. Surely more even spaced timings would be preferred, especially as LM is just between Crewe and Stafford so could be moved relatively easily.

East Midlands Railways will now be stationary at Crewe for 40 minutes


Additionally, not sure if the 1446 LM London Euston - Crewe & 1713 LM Crewe - London Euston is removed but is not on Real Time Trains

But the LM is timed due to connections at Stoke and Stafford, whatever happens it will make some connections and miss others.

You could maybe move the LM back to say xx:46 which could work

 

[popeter45]

would be nice of TfW extended more of the Mark 4 diagrams to Swansea rather than just the token weekend set
totally dependent on if they can resource that

 

[The Planner]

But the LM is timed due to connections at Stoke and Stafford, whatever happens it will make some connections and miss others.

You could maybe move the LM back to say xx:46 which could work

Clashes with the down Manchester at Stone unless you just sat it outside for a few minutes.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Clashes with the down Manchester at Stone unless you just sat it outside for a few minutes.

So it does. It really is like threading a needle at times isn't it!

 

[Kite159]

Crewe - Stoke (and beyond) will go from xx:10 (EM) and xx:33 (LM), to xx:26 (EM) and xx:33 (LM) and then none for 53 minutes. Surely more even spaced timings would be preferred, especially as LM is just between Crewe and Stafford so could be moved relatively easily.

East Midlands Railways will now be stationary at Crewe for 40 minutes


Additionally, not sure if the 1446 LM London Euston - Crewe & 1713 LM Crewe - London Euston is removed but is not on Real Time Trains

So back to how it used to be a few years ago where both trains from Crewe to Stoke would depart within a few minutes of each other causing overcrowding on the first service

 

[ayubdaud]

Crewe - Stoke (and beyond) will go from xx:10 (EM) and xx:33 (LM), to xx:26 (EM) and xx:33 (LM) and then none for 53 minutes. Surely more even spaced timings would be preferred, especially as LM is just between Crewe and Stafford so could be moved relatively easily.

East Midlands Railways will now be stationary at Crewe for 40 minutes


Additionally, not sure if the 1446 LM London Euston - Crewe & 1713 LM Crewe - London Euston is removed but is not on Real Time Trains

Would imagine the question was asked. The EMR trains back to Crewe sit at Barthomley Jn for 7 mins to wait for the WMT to clear the single line!

 

[Baji]

From 14th December 2025, services between London Victoria and West Croydon via Crystal Palace will continue to operate after 8pm (weekdays) according to realtrain times

 

[PGAT]

From 14th December 2025, services between London Victoria and West Croydon via Crystal Palace will continue to operate after 8pm (weekdays) according to realtrain times

Not on Realtimetrains

 

[Baji]

Not on Realtimetrains

Ahh just checked again and realised I saw 08:06 (not 20:06). Sorry forget what I said

 

[SeanM1997]

Avanti appears to have removed:
0716 London Euston - Glasgow Central via Birmingham
1138 London Euston - Glasgow Central via Birmingham
0939 Glasgow Central - London Euston via Birmingham
1336 Glasgow Central - London Eustom via Birmingham

Does lead to large gaps between Birmingham/Crewe and Warrington/Preston

 

[hexagon789]

Avanti appears to have removed:
0716 London Euston - Glasgow Central via Birmingham
1138 London Euston - Glasgow Central via Birmingham
0939 Glasgow Central - London Euston via Birmingham
1336 Glasgow Central - London Eustom via Birmingham

Does lead to large gaps between Birmingham/Crewe and Warrington/Preston

Not removed, as stated up thread they are being retimed to better fit the normal pattern. When reintroduced in May, they were run in suboptimal paths as that was all that was available. (Hence running only 3 mins behind a via Trent Valley fast southbound for example.)

 

[SeanM1997]

Not removed, as stated up thread they are being retimed to better fit the normal pattern. When reintroduced in May, they were run in suboptimal paths as that was all that was available. (Hence running only 3 mins behind a via Trent Valley fast southbound for example.)

Where in the thread? I thought Avanti Preston - Birmingham has been hourly for a while

Retimed so you think they'll get added a later date? Wonder if that's true for LNWR Euston - Crewe / Crewe - Euston which is missing

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

Additionally, Avanti appears to be increasing its Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston service to 2 trains an hour all day Monday-Saturday and some increases on Sundays

1 - Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Crewe, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston
2 - Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth, London Euston

 

[hexagon789]

Additionally, Avanti appears to be increasing its Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston service to 2 trains an hour all day Monday-Saturday and some increases on Sundays

1 - Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Crewe, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston
2 - Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth, London Euston

This has also already been partly done, there will be a further 4 workings each way (on the second stopping pattern you list) added in September and then more in December.

 

[p.d87]

Where in the thread? I thought Avanti Preston - Birmingham has been hourly for a while

Retimed so you think they'll get added a later date? Wonder if that's true for LNWR Euston - Crewe / Crewe - Euston which is missing

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

Additionally, Avanti appears to be increasing its Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston service to 2 trains an hour all day Monday-Saturday and some increases on Sundays

1 - Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Crewe, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston
2 - Liverpool Lime Street, Runcorn, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth, London Euston

Are the Liverpool south parkway stops no longer happening?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Manchester to Chester via Altrincham finally goes hourly on a Sunday!!

 

[BerkshireRails]

"With what?" is the same question to apply to Northern, if you extend them to Birmingham. They're taking over the Huddersfield-Leeds stopper from TPE, so two units needed there; two more for this service. Both currently diesel only, and you'd need two more (at least) to extend to Birmingham, assuming you can platform it there.

Guessing the two units come from Bolton electrifaction?

 

[GoneSouth]

Manchester to Chester via Altrincham finally goes hourly on a Sunday!!

I don’t want to burst your bubble but this is Northern we’re talking about and there will inevitably be staffing issues.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I don’t want to burst your bubble but this is Northern we’re talking about and there will inevitably be staffing issues.

Maybe Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent on Sundays could go hourly too

 

[Mamorin]

Maybe Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent on Sundays could go hourly too

The Northern rail service on that route on Sundays has to be reinstated first, which I think is planned for 2026.

Northern's Manchester to Stoke service won't go hourly on Sundays due to train crew contracts.

 

[SeanM1997]

Transport for Wales (TfW) to launch a new shuttle service between Chester and Wrexham General from December 2025, operating 1x per hour.

This means 2x trains per hour between Chester and Wrexham when combined with North Wales - Shrewsbury - Cardiff/Birmingham

It is planned this new shuttle service will combine with the Chester - Crewe service from May 2026. Once signalling has been completed on Chester-Shrewsbury line, the shuttle will be extended further to give two trains an hour between Gobowen and Chester although that's longer term