December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[bramling]

It will be interesting to see if they do. Avanti (and Virgin and InterCity West Coast before them) basically never do/did. The only case I can ever recall of passengers being allowed to travel on an InterCity train between Euston and Watford Junction, bar if they sneaked on, in recent history, was when an incident of some kind (forget what it was, think it was a late night freight derailment on Bletchley South Junction which blocked all 4 tracks) stranded a couple of 321s and a couple of Pendolinos south of Bletchley, and all of these were used to run an all-stations shuttle service from Euston to Tring for buses north for a day or two while the mess was cleaned up.

I suspect good luck to LNER in trying to stop it during disruption. It will either by that LNER staff can’t get through the train to do tickets, or else if they try and excess people then it won’t be long before it becomes a political issue.

 

[Starmill]

I think to be fair Roger Ford has made the point on quality of InterCity journeys before (mostly as the reason he seems to support the fare increase trial and/or compulsory reservations, but it also logically extends to this). It isn't nice when you can't pack your bag at your leisure and pop to the loo before alighting because a load of commuters have crammed on at Stevenage, particularly on a 5 car.

Interestingly in Germany where there normally is segregation you usually can actually buy a ticket for the intercity train for the commuter journey, it's just priced right up to discourage it rather than being in the local tariff.

Ford's sneering at those who don't have a Gold Satus Pass, money to burn on first class tickets, or standard class ones at long-haul anytime price levels, is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm talking about here when I refer to people being fuss pots for no good reason.

He's a wealthy man who shows his disdain for the general public freely, he prefers not having so many annoying other people using his trains. He will even rub it in other's faces:

So you are happy with a back-packer standing in the aisle beside your standard class Intercity Seat seat impinging on your space, ability to have trolley service, get to toilet, etc. #goldpass.

https://x.com/Captain_Deltic/status/1121007528857436160?s=09

Arguably you put it best yourself:

Ford is the worst at it - as I said he's clearly rich and doesn't care what it costs as long as he gets a nice quiet train. You can see that on Twitter very clearly.

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

It absolutely does. I've come across two very useful Anytime Day Single splits because of it (OK, one only saves £1.50 but the other over a fiver). But only if it's the cheapest option, it doesn't give you an option for a flexible-only split if an Advance (split or otherwise) is cheaper. What I...

www.railforums.co.uk

He's technically extremely capable, but can be a nasty piece of work in my opinion:

It's not you having to squat in the vestibule that's the problem, it's you sitting on the floor stopping the refreshment trolley getting to my seat!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2025 ==

I don't think LNER will have a choice!

I remember an incident a few years back where there was major disruption. A LNER train got announced as 1st stop Stevenage and it became very busy. By the time it left it was like a tube train - proper crush loaded both in 1st and standard. The Train Manager was getting very agitated demanding that people vacate 1st class. It simply wasn't going to happen, so as we left the TM announced that 1st class service would be suspended until Stevenage.

I dread to think how many people got off at Stevenage but there were loads. The train was still full and standing when it left Stevenage!

To be fair this was very much the exception.

Indeed. At times of disruption the capacity needs using and everything else goes out of the window. Ford would prefer it not so I think but I say it's crackers to allow a train to go out anything less than crush loaded during significant disruption.

 

[weeklycommuter]

By making the trains set down only, all that is likely to happen is LNER will lose their share of revenue. It's just not realistic to stop people boarding when it's the same pair of adjacent platforms for all departures. Nearly everyone on those platforms is going to London and will just board whatever shows up first...

The Stevenage station staff have 101 things to worry about, they certainly aren't likely to be worried about attempting to enforce some new rules sent down by LNER.

In the other direction it's different, but also more of a problem, because LNER carry a significant amount of PM peak traffic, especially midweek, back to Stevenage. Also at present the Hitachi screens always seem to show unadvertised departures on the side of the train.

LNER is at fault for continuing to sell London-Stevenage tickets which undercut those of the main operator GTR despite all fare revenue going to HM Treasury. Clearly this practice will cease when the December 2025 timetable starts and that by itself will remove a big incentive to try to use LNER train services just to travel between London and Stevenage.

I cannot see any justification for anyone using LNER train services just to travel between London and Stevenage when GTR train services are operating normally as there are plenty of high capacity GTR trains running between London and Stevenage. It makes no sense to allow rail passengers to take capacity on LNER trains just to travel between London and Stevenage when GTR train services are operating normally. Making the LNER train services pick-up only Northbound and set-down only Southbound at Stevenage is clearly the right decision.

Another change in the December 2025 timetable is there will be only be a very small number of LNER trains calling at both Stevenage and Peterborough, mainly early morning and very late evening, whereas in the current timetable London to York and Lincoln trains mostly call at both stations. This will mean that far fewer rail passengers travelling between Stevenage and Peterborough can use LNER train services.

 

[800Travel]

Newcastle 5 cars are
1N10 1533 ex KGX and 1Y21 1927 return
1N05 1033 ex KGX and 1Y16 1427 return
1N08 1333 ex KGX and 1Y19 1727 return
1N00 0808 ex Darlington and 1Y10 0927 to KGX


10 cars
1N07 1233 ex KGX and 1Y18 1627 return

That 1727 is usually the first Newcastle southbound of rush hour (after standard working hours at least). Very busy as a 9 car, probably full and standing as a 5!

*Edited pre-emptively to change NCL to Newcastle for clarity, as this is often requested by the mods

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Yes bit a of a sacfirice but the real losers are the smaller stations really. Alnmouth still has a service at 1740 from Newcastle (arr 1805), whilst Cramlington and Morpeth have one at 1747 (arr 1800 and 1809). So it's Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill that lose out really. Makes sense though not to build the timetable around those as between them they only produced around 5,500 passengers in 2023/24 combined. By comparison Alnmouth was 0.35m and Morpeth 0.52m.

Looks to me as though priority has been given to those station that are the major drivers of commuter traffic (by giving them well timed services) but the smaller ones have had to lose out.

Selfishly, I don’t mind the new times for that train. It will get me back in the house for 1745 and allow me to have a couple of pints before hand if I wish.

Mind, those that finish at around 1700 will be hard pressed. I know the Councillor for Pegswood has been raising the issue.

 

[55002]

That 1727 is usually the first NCL southbound of rush hour (after standard working hours at least). Very busy as a 9 car, probably full and standing as a 5!

remember it comes from Edinburgh now, starts at Newcastle in new timetable

 

[800Travel]

remember it comes from Edinburgh now, starts at Newcastle in new timetable

The platform is often incredibly crowded for this service at Newcastle, so I assumed that's where the crowding begins - but it could be from Edinburgh I suppose

 

[Iskra]

Why are we burdened with so many 5-car LNER trains running into London Kings Cross? How did we get to this point? Why were they even ordered in the first place?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are we burdened with so many 5-car LNER trains running into London Kings Cross?

Because that's what they've got and it's the only way to get the higher frequency in place now, though when the CAFs arrive they will reduce the number running as 5.

How did we get to this point? Why were they even ordered in the first place?

For portion working. Which is what they largely do in the current timetable.

 

[hexagon789]

The platform is often incredibly crowded for this service at Newcastle, so I assumed that's where the crowding begins - but it could be from Edinburgh I suppose

It's currently the 1601 from Edinburgh.

In December it'll become a Newcastle starter; it will also make fewer intermediate stops after Newcastle. Currently it makes 8, it'll now make 6.

It will also now be immediately preceded by a 1724 to Kin'gs Cross, which is now the one from Edinburgh at 1600. That one only stops at York.

One might argue that the two trains atre effectively the current 1727 departure split into two workings.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are we burdened with so many 5-car LNER trains running into London Kings Cross? How did we get to this point? Why were they even ordered in the first place?

The total number of 9 car trains is only very slightly less than the original number of 225 and HST sets. The 5 cars were basically extras to allow for additional services to destinations off the ECML, such as Lincoln and Middlesbrough, and gave the option for portion working. Meanwhile the timetable keeps getting increased.

 

[hexagon789]

The total number of 9 car trains is only very slightly less than the original number of 225 and HST sets. The 5 cars were basically extras to allow for additional services to destinations off the ECML, such as Lincoln and Middlesbrough, and gave the option for portion working. Meanwhile the timetable keeps getting increased.

The Azumas were ordered with a timetable increase in mind, albeit not the one we currently have from December. The stopping patterns were very different from memory for a start under the originally proposed timetable of around 10 years ago now.

We've also lost 3 extensions since then -Glasgow, Stirling and Sunderland. Two of those certainly permitted improvements in service paucity elsewhere on the Edinburgh-Newcastle-London KX corridor, I can't remember whether the loss of the Sunderland did too.

 

[Starmill]

LNER is at fault for continuing to sell London-Stevenage tickets which undercut those of the main operator GTR despite all fare revenue going to HM Treasury. Clearly this practice will cease when the December 2025 timetable starts and that by itself will remove a big incentive to try to use LNER train services just to travel between London and Stevenage.

I cannot see any justification for anyone using LNER train services just to travel between London and Stevenage when GTR train services are operating normally as there are plenty of high capacity GTR trains running between London and Stevenage. It makes no sense to allow rail passengers to take capacity on LNER trains just to travel between London and Stevenage when GTR train services are operating normally. Making the LNER train services pick-up only Northbound and set-down only Southbound at Stevenage is clearly the right decision.

Another change in the December 2025 timetable is there will be only be a very small number of LNER trains calling at both Stevenage and Peterborough, mainly early morning and very late evening, whereas in the current timetable London to York and Lincoln trains mostly call at both stations. This will mean that far fewer rail passengers travelling between Stevenage and Peterborough can use LNER train services.

This just goes to show how much you have misunderstood this. LNER have been cheaper for many, many years. Given there are significant numbers of people alighting southbound trains at Stevenage, it's an efficiency to replace them. If you don't replace them that capacity gets wasted. Hence the incentive to choose one of their trains.

 

[YorksLad12]

The Azumas were ordered with a timetable increase in mind, albeit not the one we currently have from December. The stopping patterns were very different from memory for a start under the originally proposed timetable of around 10 years ago now.

We've also lost 3 extensions since then -Glasgow, Stirling and Sunderland. Two of those certainly permitted improvements in service paucity elsewhere on the Edinburgh-Newcastle-London KX corridor, I can't remember whether the loss of the Sunderland did too.

Some history on the proposed East Coast changes from the forum: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-ecml-lner-services.177199/

 

[swt_passenger]

The Azumas were ordered with a timetable increase in mind, albeit not the one we currently have from December. The stopping patterns were very different from memory for a start under the originally proposed timetable of around 10 years ago now.

We've also lost 3 extensions since then -Glasgow, Stirling and Sunderland. Two of those certainly permitted improvements in service paucity elsewhere on the Edinburgh-Newcastle-London KX corridor, I can't remember whether the loss of the Sunderland did too.

I think the loss of the Sunderland extension just meant that single unit got to spend an hour or two longer at Heaton depot overnight. It was a service operating in ’marginal time’, as they say.

 

[Judith hambly]

so seeing theres alist of newcastle trains that are 5 car can anyone list the complete 5 car workings to from kx. obviously the lincolns but are there any yorks or leeds to avoid

 

[hexagon789]

I think the loss of the Sunderland extension just meant that single unit got to spend an hour or two longer at Heaton depot overnight. It was a service operating in ’marginal time’, as they say.

I wondered if that was the case, but I remember the others enabled an earlier/later Newcastle working

 

[bramling]

I caught the 18:12 GTR train from Kings Cross to Stevenage this evening. It was an 8-car 700 and left KGX with standing passengers.
Based on previous experience the 18:33 LNER would leave with some standing in the vestibules (buit not in the aisles) until SVG
The 18:42 GTR from KGX to SVG would leave with standing passengers

The GTR trains will become much fuller if LNER aren't taking passengers between KGX and SVG. They will potentially need strengthening to 12-cars.

There are GTR services from St Pancras - these are already businer than the services from KGX.

When GTR fall over (as they've done twice in the last month) then LNER will need to take passengers between KGX and SVG.

The issue will be that there’s GTR falling over, when they’re going to get Stevenage passengers on LNER whether they like it or not, but there’s also going to be situations where one or more GTR trains are cancelled or delayed and the LNER service becomes the next available train to (or from) London. That’s where there will be trouble I suspect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2025 ==

LNER is at fault for continuing to sell London-Stevenage tickets which undercut those of the main operator GTR despite all fare revenue going to HM Treasury. Clearly this practice will cease when the December 2025 timetable starts and that by itself will remove a big incentive to try to use LNER train services just to travel between London and Stevenage.

I cannot see any justification for anyone using LNER train services just to travel between London and Stevenage when GTR train services are operating normally as there are plenty of high capacity GTR trains running between London and Stevenage. It makes no sense to allow rail passengers to take capacity on LNER trains just to travel between London and Stevenage when GTR train services are operating normally. Making the LNER train services pick-up only Northbound and set-down only Southbound at Stevenage is clearly the right decision.

Another change in the December 2025 timetable is there will be only be a very small number of LNER trains calling at both Stevenage and Peterborough, mainly early morning and very late evening, whereas in the current timetable London to York and Lincoln trains mostly call at both stations. This will mean that far fewer rail passengers travelling between Stevenage and Peterborough can use LNER train services.

The latter point is quite interesting. There is some level of flow between Stevenage and Peterborough, both in its own right and for connections. It’s not going to be too popular such journeys now having to be on a slower service with 6 intermediate stops.

 

[D1537]

so seeing theres alist of newcastle trains that are 5 car can anyone list the complete 5 car workings to from kx. obviously the lincolns but are there any yorks or leeds to avoid

All the Yorks are 5-car apart from the first southbound and last northbound which is a 225. There are also some Leeds/Harrogate/Bradford which I think were listed earlier but if not I'll post them later.

Edit: OK so here's the full list

Newcastle/Leeds
1) 1N00 0808 DAR-NCL, 1Y10 0927 NCL-KGX, 1D16 1310 KGX-LDS, 1A28 1640 LDS-KGX, 1N14 1933 KGX-NCL
2) 1Y06 0627 NCL-KGX, 1N05 1033 KGX-NCL, 1Y16 1427 NCL-KGX
3) 1D04 0710 KGX-LDS, 1A16 1040 LDS-KGX, 1N08 1333 KGX-NCL, 1Y19 1727 NCL-KGX, 1N33 2103 KGX-NCL
4) 1N82 0947 KGX-YRK, 1Y83 1227 YRK-KGX, 1N10 1533 KGX-NCL, 1Y21 1927 NCL-KGX
5) 1D09 0940 KGX-BFQ, 1A23 1337 BFQ-KGX, 1D24 1708 KGX-LDS, 1A35 2010 LDS-KGX, 1D36 2333 KGX-LDS
6) 1A09 0700 HUL-KGX, 1D11 1040 KGX-HGT, 1A25 1433 HGT-KGX

Plus

• All other York semi-fasts* and all other Lincoln, Hull and Middlesbrough trains are 5-car (6 diagrams)
• Two other diagrams are 10-car all day
• 1A06 0640 LDS-KGX is a 10-car which splits to form diagrams 4 and 5 above
• 1A15 0937 BFQ-KGX is a 10-car which splits to form a Lincoln diagram and the other goes to Bounds Green
• 1D26 1803 KGX-SKI is a 10-car which forms from diagrams 2 and 6 above.

Total 5-car diagrams: 17/22

*apart from 1Y01 0440 YRK-KGX and 1N35 2308 KGX-YRK which are 225s


Problem trains could be
1Y10 0927 NCL-KGX - first London train which a lot of railcards are valid on from DHM/DAR/NTR, looking at prices it's £40 less than the train either side of it
1Y06 0627 NCL-KGX - popular train for commuters to York, especially from DAR/NTR, and for NTR customers, from December there's no longer a TPE 10 minutes behind it as there is at the moment
1Y19 1727 NCL-KGX - big commuter service (the current 1E22, and the new 1E22 is first stop York)
1D24 1708 KGX-LDS - obvious commuter train
1D36 2333 KGX-LDS - the big night out in London express

 

[Judith hambly]

cheers

 

[Deerfold]

The Azumas were ordered with a timetable increase in mind, albeit not the one we currently have from December. The stopping patterns were very different from memory for a start under the originally proposed timetable of around 10 years ago now.

We've also lost 3 extensions since then -Glasgow, Stirling and Sunderland. Two of those certainly permitted improvements in service paucity elsewhere on the Edinburgh-Newcastle-London KX corridor, I can't remember whether the loss of the Sunderland did too.

Not to mention (additional) Skipton and Huddersfield extensions (with these planned to be 5 car portions joining at Leeds).

Bradford gained a second daily service as a step towards a two-hourly service before it was announced this would be withdrawn and no extra services provided before the plan changed again.

 

[Judith hambly]

i can see a lot of crowding issues coming here

 

[hexagon789]

i can see a lot of crowding issues coming here

Depends how they manage the quotas.

 

[Starmill]

i can see a lot of crowding issues coming here

As long as there's adequate space left on every train for people who pay on the day or use a season ticket etc. then it should be OK. However...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

All the Yorks are 5-car apart from the first southbound and last northbound which is a 225. There are also some Leeds/Harrogate/Bradford which I think were listed earlier but if not I'll post them later.

Edit: OK so here's the full list

Newcastle/Leeds
1) 1N00 0808 DAR-NCL, 1Y10 0927 NCL-KGX, 1D16 1310 KGX-LDS, 1A28 1640 LDS-KGX, 1N14 1933 KGX-NCL
2) 1Y06 0627 NCL-KGX, 1N05 1033 KGX-NCL, 1Y16 1427 NCL-KGX
3) 1D04 0710 KGX-LDS, 1A16 1040 LDS-KGX, 1N08 1333 KGX-NCL, 1Y19 1727 NCL-KGX, 1N33 2103 KGX-NCL
4) 1N82 0947 KGX-YRK, 1Y83 1227 YRK-KGX, 1N10 1533 KGX-NCL, 1Y21 1927 NCL-KGX
5) 1D09 0940 KGX-BFQ, 1A23 1337 BFQ-KGX, 1D24 1708 KGX-LDS, 1A35 2010 LDS-KGX, 1D36 2333 KGX-LDS
6) 1A09 0700 HUL-KGX, 1D11 1040 KGX-HGT, 1A25 1433 HGT-KGX

Plus

• All other York semi-fasts* and all other Lincoln, Hull and Middlesbrough trains are 5-car (6 diagrams)
• Two other diagrams are 10-car all day
• 1A06 0640 LDS-KGX is a 10-car which splits to form diagrams 4 and 5 above
• 1A15 0937 BFQ-KGX is a 10-car which splits to form a Lincoln diagram and the other goes to Bounds Green
• 1D26 1803 KGX-SKI is a 10-car which forms from diagrams 2 and 6 above.

Total 5-car diagrams: 17/22

*apart from 1Y01 0440 YRK-KGX and 1N35 2308 KGX-YRK which are 225s


Problem trains could be
1Y10 0927 NCL-KGX - first London train which a lot of railcards are valid on from DHM/DAR/NTR, looking at prices it's £40 less than the train either side of it
1Y06 0627 NCL-KGX - popular train for commuters to York, especially from DAR/NTR, and for NTR customers, from December there's no longer a TPE 10 minutes behind it as there is at the moment
1Y19 1727 NCL-KGX - big commuter service (the current 1E22, and the new 1E22 is first stop York)
1D24 1708 KGX-LDS - obvious commuter train
1D36 2333 KGX-LDS - the big night out in London express

Forming the 0940 and 0947 departure from the same platform at Kings Cross could be interesting. How long does it take to announce a second departure after the first one departs?

 

[D1537]

As long as there's adequate space left on every train for people who pay on the day or use a season ticket etc. then it should be OK. However...

Yeah, exactly. The biggest issue I think is that 1708 King's Cross-Leeds. According to the summer 2024 data there were an average of 546 people on that leaving KGX!

 

[MontyP]

All the Yorks are 5-car apart from the first southbound and last northbound which is a 225. There are also some Leeds/Harrogate/Bradford which I think were listed earlier but if not I'll post them later.

Edit: OK so here's the full list

Newcastle/Leeds
1) 1N00 0808 DAR-NCL, 1Y10 0927 NCL-KGX, 1D16 1310 KGX-LDS, 1A28 1640 LDS-KGX, 1N14 1933 KGX-NCL
2) 1Y06 0627 NCL-KGX, 1N05 1033 KGX-NCL, 1Y16 1427 NCL-KGX
3) 1D04 0710 KGX-LDS, 1A16 1040 LDS-KGX, 1N08 1333 KGX-NCL, 1Y19 1727 NCL-KGX, 1N33 2103 KGX-NCL
4) 1N82 0947 KGX-YRK, 1Y83 1227 YRK-KGX, 1N10 1533 KGX-NCL, 1Y21 1927 NCL-KGX
5) 1D09 0940 KGX-BFQ, 1A23 1337 BFQ-KGX, 1D24 1708 KGX-LDS, 1A35 2010 LDS-KGX, 1D36 2333 KGX-LDS
6) 1A09 0700 HUL-KGX, 1D11 1040 KGX-HGT, 1A25 1433 HGT-KGX

Plus

• All other York semi-fasts* and all other Lincoln, Hull and Middlesbrough trains are 5-car (6 diagrams)
• Two other diagrams are 10-car all day
• 1A06 0640 LDS-KGX is a 10-car which splits to form diagrams 4 and 5 above
• 1A15 0937 BFQ-KGX is a 10-car which splits to form a Lincoln diagram and the other goes to Bounds Green
• 1D26 1803 KGX-SKI is a 10-car which forms from diagrams 2 and 6 above.

Total 5-car diagrams: 17/22

*apart from 1Y01 0440 YRK-KGX and 1N35 2308 KGX-YRK which are 225s


Problem trains could be
1Y10 0927 NCL-KGX - first London train which a lot of railcards are valid on from DHM/DAR/NTR, looking at prices it's £40 less than the train either side of it
1Y06 0627 NCL-KGX - popular train for commuters to York, especially from DAR/NTR, and for NTR customers, from December there's no longer a TPE 10 minutes behind it as there is at the moment
1Y19 1727 NCL-KGX - big commuter service (the current 1E22, and the new 1E22 is first stop York)
1D24 1708 KGX-LDS - obvious commuter train
1D36 2333 KGX-LDS - the big night out in London express

So the 1640 Leeds-Kings X and 1708 Kings X-Leeds are both 5-car services? That is insane!

 

[Bald Rick]

Should improve performance through the section though as a couple of signals have delayed sighting due to tunnels so when a train has run off the slows with on the fast behind it opens up a gap. ETCS will give the drivers earlier indication of how far they can proceed. Mind you if its a Up 9S/9J they are following they come down to a virtual stand before crossing over into the platform at Finsbury Pk.

Yes, but only when the signals go. The approach control will still apply with the signals in place and operating.

 

[weeklycommuter]

So the 1640 Leeds-Kings X and 1708 Kings X-Leeds are both 5-car services? That is insane!

Are LNER going to use all possible IC225s? Looks like there are too many 5 car trains on the LDS-KGX and NCL-KGX services and they really need more rolling stock.

 

[D1537]

Are LNER going to use all possible IC225s? Looks like there are too many 5 car trains on the LDS-KGX and NCL-KGX services and they really need more rolling stock.

There are four diagrams in the new timetable on Mon-Sat, the same as there is now. I haven't checked the Sunday ones (there are currently five of those).