December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[43074]

It would break the entire ecml timetable if those trains stopped at Durham.

Really it comes back to the timetable not being fit for purpose though. The loss of Retford - Newark is getting the attention but there are several much larger flows which have been overlooked in this timetable:

Peterborough to London is the 2nd highest flow to Kings Cross yet southbound there's a 47 minute gap then 4 trains in half an hour, or 2 trains in 5 minutes followed by a 37 minute gap. This bizarre pattern repeats every 2 hours.

London to Leeds is only 2 minutes quicker and all the connections at Leeds to Ilkley/Skipton (which are well used) are broken. The hype when the Azumas were launched was that they'd deliver 2 hour journey times to Leeds, so it's a pity it doesn't even get close to that.

York to Newcastle is poorly spaced with 6 trains in half an hour then nothing for half an hour, and the bunching northbound between xx:19 and xx:36 creates really clunky paths with lots of pathing time waiting platforms at Darlington/Newcastle etc, which in turn slows it down. Same as the Durham to Newcastle debate really.

Would agree with comments on Durham to Peterborough, Newcastle and Edinburgh above as well.

 

[mernrith]

Quite - which is why running a TPE service to Leeds and beyond may have valuu beyond what the raw numbers for Durham - Manchester/Liverpool would suggest.

I get what you meant here. But should the additional service be targeting on solving issues on ECML north of York then I would not prefer another transpennine service just yet.

Is this a thing? Always thought there should be one an hour between here and York, bridge some of that gap in their network

I remember seeing this suggested for quite a while, but I am not sure where the service leaves ECML.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Peterborough to London is the 2nd highest flow to Kings Cross yet southbound there's a 47 minute gap then 4 trains in half an hour, or 2 trains in 5 minutes followed by a 37 minute gap. This bizarre pattern repeats every 2 hours.

Monday to Saturday Peterborough also has the half hourly Thameslink service to Horsham operated with 12-car Thameslink Class 700 trains.

This runs non stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park then also calls at St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon then several more stations including Gatwick Airport.

One change which I think is needed is to run both this and the half hourly Cambridge-Brighton Thameslink service half hourly seven days a week including Sundays. Both these train services call at Gatwick Airport which needs train services seven days a week. GTR need to recruit more drivers for all their Sunday services. They do not need to recruit second onboard staff for the Thameslink services as these services are driver only operated so each Thameslink train service only needs a driver.

The Peterborough-Horsham Thameslink services provide a lot more direct rail connections to and through London than the LNER services that call at Peterborough. Fares on the Thameslink services from Peterborough can also be a lot lower than on the LNER services between Peterborough and London Kings Cross.

 

[Kite159]

Monday to Saturday Peterborough also has the half hourly Thameslink service to Horsham operated with 12-car Thameslink Class 700 trains.

This runs non stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park then also calls at St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon then several more stations including Gatwick Airport.

And also takes a lot longer due to stopping at all the stations north of Stevenage.

It's like suggesting to someone at Didcot to take the stopper as it runs non stop Slough to Paddington.

 

[weeklycommuter]

And also takes a lot longer due to stopping at all the stations north of Stevenage.

It's like suggesting to someone at Didcot to take the stopper as it runs non stop Slough to Paddington.

50 minutes Peterborough-London Kings Cross on LNER services and 80 minutes Peterborough-London St Pancras on Thameslink services. However the Thameslink services continue through London to provide direct train services from Peterborough to Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport which is not only more convenient but also means the total journey time from Peterborough to these and many other destinations is likely to be about the same as using LNER services and changing at London Kings Cross.

 

[dk1]

50 minutes Peterborough-London Kings Cross on LNER services and 80 minutes Peterborough-London St Pancras on Thameslink services. However the Thameslink services continue through London to provide direct train services from Peterborough to Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport which is not only more convenient but also means the total journey time from Peterborough to these and many other destinations is likely to be about the same as using LNER services and changing at London Kings Cross.

To be fair it takes me less than 5 minutes to get from my train at Kings Cross to platform A at St.Pancras. Just rely on the first available train then.

 

[43074]

Monday to Saturday Peterborough also has the half hourly Thameslink service to Horsham operated with 12-car Thameslink Class 700 trains.

This runs non stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park then also calls at St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon then several more stations including Gatwick Airport.

Yes; fully aware of those but the majority of Peterborough to London passengers use LNER (or the "fast" Great Northern services in the peaks).

Changing at Kings Cross for Central London and destinations south of the river still tends to be quicker than staying on a Thameslink throughout, the difference between LNER and TL to Kings Cross/St Pancras is 31 mins, you can comfortably get from Kings Cross to St Pancras Low Level (or the tube) in 10 minutes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It would break the entire ecml timetable if those trains stopped at Durham.

Northbound it wouldn’t. There’s an 8-10 minute gap into which they can slot a 5 minute station call.

I’ve not looked at southbound, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

Really it comes back to the timetable not being fit for purpose though.

That’s basically the issue. All the focus has been on London to York, Newcastle, and Edinburgh, and stuff anyone trying to do an intermediate journey.

I get it to an extent, but the fast Edinburgh trains really do just swallow up capacity. And we’re in the situation where even more intermediate passengers are being shoved on to XC services which are already chronically overcrowded, just so LNER can have a shiny fast path.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Northbound it wouldn’t. There’s an 8-10 minute gap into which they can slot a 5 minute station call.

I’ve not looked at southbound, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==


That’s basically the issue. All the focus has been on London to York, Newcastle, and Edinburgh, and stuff anyone trying to do an intermediate journey.

I get it to an extent, but the fast Edinburgh trains really do just swallow up capacity. And we’re in the situation where even more intermediate passengers are being shoved on to XC services which are already chronically overcrowded, just so LNER can have a shiny fast path.

No it definitely would break the timetable northbound.

 

[Verulamius]

No it definitely would break the timetable northbound.

Could you have Durham stops in the hours that Lumo does not run?

 

[Starmill]

Northbound it wouldn’t. There’s an 8-10 minute gap into which they can slot a 5 minute station call.

They would be xx59 at Birtley Jn, not headway with the Lumo from London. They would also not have access to platform 2 any more at Newcastle if the TPE to Edinburgh is running.

 

[mernrith]

No it definitely would break the timetable northbound.

Would you mind elaborating more on it? I don't think the northbound express would catch the stopper at Durham or Newcastle

 

[Starmill]

Could you have Durham stops in the hours that Lumo does not run?

It looks like platform 2 and 3 at Newcastle would need to be looked at again to enable this. I am also concerned it may not be headway with freight at some times.

 

[Kite159]

50 minutes Peterborough-London Kings Cross on LNER services and 80 minutes Peterborough-London St Pancras on Thameslink services. However the Thameslink services continue through London to provide direct train services from Peterborough to Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport which is not only more convenient but also means the total journey time from Peterborough to these and many other destinations is likely to be about the same as using LNER services and changing at London Kings Cross.

So it takes someone 30 minutes to transfer from a LNER at Kings Cross to the first available Thameslink at St Pancras heading towards Farringdon, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport. Besides isn't the Peterborough - Horsham a slow train south of East Croydon (crawls via Redhill).

Yes the official minimum connection time is that long to avoid paying out delay claims, but the majority of customers it will take 10 minutes max.

 

[Verulamius]

Going south from Peterborough the xx:23 to Horsham is only over taken (by 4 mins) by the ex York (Retford) service xx:45 in the hours it runs otherwise is it quicker than the next LNER.

The ex Lincoln service is on the opposite half hour.

 

[Judith hambly]

The whole lner tt is a farce. No lner trains at Dunbar or Morpeth except early morn late eve. Berwick and alnmouth drop to 2 hourly. Gaps at places like Durham .no newark Retford services just for a start . Should be torn up

 

[dk1]

The whole lner tt is a farce. No lner trains at Dunbar or Morpeth except early morn late eve. Berwick and alnmouth drop to 2 hourly. Gaps at places like Durham .no newark Retford services just for a start . Should be torn up

Boot late for that now. All signed off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

I’ve just selected a date and can see some LNER services calling at both Morpeth and Dunbar.

 

[hexagon789]

I’ve just selected a date and can see some LNER services calling at both Morpeth and Dunbar.

Morpeth loses 2 LNER calls, Dunbar gains 2.

The spread at Dunbar is broadly the same, though the gap in London-bound services does increase by one hour.

 

[dk1]

Morpeth loses 2 LNER calls, Dunbar gains 2.

The spread at Dunbar is broadly the same, though the gap in London-bound services does increase by one hour.

Morpeth has been a massive winner in the last few years, sometimes I think more than it merits, with additional XC, LNER and Lumo services callling there..

 

[hexagon789]

Morpeth has been a massive winner in the last few years, sometimes I think more than it merits, with additional XC, LNER and Lumo services callling there..

Morpeth is pretty well served all round I think, particularly with the now accelerated, services to London à la Lumo.

 

[dk1]

Morpeth is pretty well served all round I think, particularly with the now accelerated, services to London à la Lumo.

Yes. That town has been extremely lucky over the recent years. Not quite sure what changed to cause that.

 

[bramling]

Monday to Saturday Peterborough also has the half hourly Thameslink service to Horsham operated with 12-car Thameslink Class 700 trains.

This runs non stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park then also calls at St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon then several more stations including Gatwick Airport.

One change which I think is needed is to run both this and the half hourly Cambridge-Brighton Thameslink service half hourly seven days a week including Sundays. Both these train services call at Gatwick Airport which needs train services seven days a week. GTR need to recruit more drivers for all their Sunday services. They do not need to recruit second onboard staff for the Thameslink services as these services are driver only operated so each Thameslink train service only needs a driver.

The Peterborough-Horsham Thameslink services provide a lot more direct rail connections to and through London than the LNER services that call at Peterborough. Fares on the Thameslink services from Peterborough can also be a lot lower than on the LNER services between Peterborough and London Kings Cross.

It’s not really desirable to be pushing Peterborough passengers onto TL. At busy times this will constrain capacity further in - especially bearing in mind the amount of housebuilding which has gone on and continues to go on at all the intermediate stations between Hitchin and Peterborough. Plus the Horsham-Peterborough service is notoriously unreliable.

 

[A S Leib]

Yes. That town has been extremely lucky over the recent years. Not quite sure what changed to cause that.

I'd guess it got TPE as it was supposed to be the closest thing to a Newcastle – Edinburgh local service, and Lumo as an attempt to claim King's Cross – Newcastle – Edinburgh isn't as heavily revenue abstraction from LNER. Maybe the number of calls would be looked at again if passenger numbers have fallen sharply since Ashington reopened?

 

[dk1]

I'd guess it got TPE as it was supposed to be the closest thing to a Newcastle – Edinburgh local service, and Lumo as an attempt to claim King's Cross – Newcastle – Edinburgh isn't as heavily revenue abstraction from LNER. Maybe the number of calls would be looked at again if passenger numbers have fallen sharply since Ashington reopened?

Oh I never thought of the Ashington branch effect. I’m doing that (and the local Wetherspoons) in a couple of weeks.

 

[bramling]

I'd guess it got TPE as it was supposed to be the closest thing to a Newcastle – Edinburgh local service, and Lumo as an attempt to claim King's Cross – Newcastle – Edinburgh isn't as heavily revenue abstraction from LNER. Maybe the number of calls would be looked at again if passenger numbers have fallen sharply since Ashington reopened?

Morpeth is another significant railhead. There’s a massive area stretching westwards as far as the likes of Bellingham and beyond, whilst to the east there’s the whole Ashington / Blyth area.

Whilst I’ve no doubt the Ashington service will have dented this a bit, I suspect many of those who don’t live within walking distance of the new stations will still choose to drive to, or be dropped off/picked up at, Morpeth if making a long-distance journey.

 

[weeklycommuter]

It’s not really desirable to be pushing Peterborough passengers onto TL. At busy times this will constrain capacity further in - especially bearing in mind the amount of housebuilding which has gone on and continues to go on at all the intermediate stations between Hitchin and Peterborough. Plus the Horsham-Peterborough service is notoriously unreliable.

Certainly the Horsham-Peterborough and Cambridge-Brighton Thameslink services need to be reliable half hourly train services and run half hourly seven days a week. GTR need to ensure they have enough drivers for this seven days a week. These train services are driver only operation and do not need second onboard staff so they are very efficient in their use of staff. The 12-car Class 700 Thameslink trains also carry a lot of passengers. They are high capacity trains. Horsham-Peterborough is the only Thameslink service between Hitchin and Peterborough but the Cambridge-Brighton Thameslink service also serves Hitchin and Stevenage.

 

[timj]

Morpeth loses 2 LNER calls, Dunbar gains 2.

The spread at Dunbar is broadly the same, though the gap in London-bound services does increase by one hour.

I think Morpeth loses the very 2 calls that I keep meaning to use for a novelty trip out on 9-coach Azumas from Newcastle ie 1240 from Newcastle, returning from Morpeth at 1515. In the 1980's as a teenager I was mystified by the massive platforms at Morpeth which sat unused as there was only a DMU service to Newcastle all day while everything else passed through (apparently a sleeper stopped plus the loco hauled Chathill service but nothing I was around to see in the main daytime)

 

[hexagon789]

I think Morpeth loses the very 2 calls that I keep meaning to use for a novelty trip out on 9-coach Azumas from Newcastle ie 1240 from Newcastle, returning from Morpeth at 1515. In the 1980's as a teenager I was mystified by the massive platforms at Morpeth which sat unused as there was only a DMU service to Newcastle all day while everything else passed through (apparently a sleeper stopped plus the loco hauled Chathill service but nothing I was around to see in the main daytime)

Morpeth loses all its middle-of-day LNER calls, but gains some in the late evening, hence a net reduction of 2.

 

[D1537]

I have been sent this regarding Newcastle diagrams.
I make no guarantees of its authenticity but after I was sent it, I did a check on where sets would start and end (including the other diagrams known to be 5 or 9-car), and it balances out.
Newcastle route trains in bold.

10-car
1Y09/1D14/1A26/1N13

5-car
1Y06/1N05/1Y16/1D26*
1N00/1Y10/1D16/1A28/1N14
1A04/1N03/1Y14/1N11
1D02/1A14/1N07/1Y18/1D32
1A06**/1N82/1Y83/1N10/1Y21

* This diagram joins with the 5-car off 1A25 to form a 10-car on 1D26.
**1A06 is 2x5-car and splits at KX, the other half does Leeds route for the rest of the day

The remaining five diagrams (including the one that was/may be in the future a 225) are 9-car.

 

[Bald Rick]

Really it comes back to the timetable not being fit for purpose though.

Timetabling various requirements on to a congested network always results in compromises.

It has taken scores of experienced timetabling folk about five years to get to this point.

By all means have a go at producing one yourself.