December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[dan4291]

No doubt employing shouty people to create a hostile environment at Stevenage for when a LNER calls southbound, similar to what happens at Watford Junction with Avanti for how dare someone board a long distance train when Thameslink are having one of their usual meltdowns

Lumo already set down south and pick up north at Stevenage and they certainly don't employ shouty people there! It seems to work well though. The platform screens show 'Set Down Only' so the service is not advertised, and there's a PA announcement by Stevenage station staff (GTR employed) telling people not to board. For going north, Stevenage is not shown on the departure boards at Kings Cross which again works well.

 

[xotGD]

I can understand pick up only northbound, so that Stevenage folk don't grab a load of seats at KX to the detriment of long distance passengers. But southbound, they get on, take up any free seats and otherwise stand - no probs for the folk already on the train. Just make the service unreservable from Stevenage.

 

[jfollows]

I can understand pick up only northbound, so that Stevenage folk don't grab a load of seats at KX to the detriment of long distance passengers. But southbound, they get on, take up any free seats and otherwise stand - no probs for the folk already on the train. Just make the service unreservable from Stevenage.

And make the journey eligible for Delay Repay.

 

[bramling]

Lumo already set down south and pick up north at Stevenage and they certainly don't employ shouty people there! It seems to work well though. The platform screens show 'Set Down Only' so the service is not advertised, and there's a PA announcement by Stevenage station staff (GTR employed) telling people not to board. For going north, Stevenage is not shown on the departure boards at Kings Cross which again works well.

Stevenage was pick up / set down back in Intercity days. It never really worked then, as people still attempted to board. It will be hard to stop people when they’ve been used to doing so for many years, especially with Thameslink being so unreliable. I doubt it will last.

 

[Robski]

Lumo already set down south and pick up north at Stevenage and they certainly don't employ shouty people there! It seems to work well though. The platform screens show 'Set Down Only' so the service is not advertised, and there's a PA announcement by Stevenage station staff (GTR employed) telling people not to board. For going north, Stevenage is not shown on the departure boards at Kings Cross which again works well.

That's fine for two 5 coach trains per day. It's not going to work with 2tph and simultaneous Thameslink departures with up to 10 coach LNER trains.

If LNER wants to prevent Stevenage passengers crowding out trains then maybe they should stop selling fares that undercut GTR set fares.

 

[jfollows]

If LNER wants to prevent Stevenage passengers crowding out trains then maybe they should stop selling fares that undercut GTR set fares.

At least it seems that LNER offers a significant saving, unlike Avanti here which is cynically priced at 10p less than the unrestricted fare.

 

[43 302]

If LNER wants to prevent Stevenage passengers crowding out trains then maybe they should stop selling fares that undercut GTR set fares.

Surely they will? If Stevenage calls are pu/sd only then tickets to/from King's Cross won't be available.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Surely they will? If Stevenage calls are pu/sd only then tickets to/from King's Cross won't be available.

It will be interesting to find out what LNER do for people who do get on at Stevenage and travel to London. Would LNER refer them for some form of investigation?

Stevenage is also due to receive Contactless payments later this year too as part of Project Oval, adding some extra complications to no longer being able to use LNER to go to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stevenage is also due to receive Contactless payments later this year too as part of Project Oval, adding some extra complications to no longer being able to use LNER to go to London.

I suspect this might be what is bothering LNER - potential loss of control of what is sold.

 

[Robski]

Surely they will? If Stevenage calls are pu/sd only then tickets to/from King's Cross won't be available.

I'm saying they should withdraw the LNER only tickets alone instead of taking the nuclear option and withdrawing all LNER service between Stevenage and London. Of course if there are no LNER journeys possible between Stevenage and London then they can't set their own lower fares!

I suspect this might be what is bothering LNER - potential loss of control of what is sold.

They can't control the GTR fares either though, which are also valid on LNER.

However it could be that LNER doesn't want to invest in upgrading their on-board ticketing equipment to be able to check contactless cards. In which case the obvious solution would be to advertise that contactless is not valid on LNER.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect this might be what is bothering LNER - potential loss of control of what is sold.

It's entirely Pyrrhic though. Realistically the train manager can't do anything about people joining their train at Stevenage, they simply can't get everyone. Now he's they could focus their revenue on this, but at peak times this is also essentially an impossible task. Significant numbers of people will still tap in and use LNER from Stevenage. By not scheduling any services however LNER will have ensured they don't get any money from this. They will get the odd person to pay for a ticket who's used contactless, but let's be realistic, are they going to be able to get a Peterborough - London fare out of anyone? I sorely doubt it. So any new full price tickets that are sold, they won't get any revenue from. Taking it to court would be reputational suicide and highly risky.

In the other direction it's significantly easier to stop people. However, even then, it would require manual checks on the platform rather than the shared gateline. In this instance a customer can reasonably be asked to pay for a ticket to Peterborough, and should this refuse to do so, can be treated as if no ticket were held.

 

[xotGD]

Northbound, you skip the Stevenage pick up call on random days, and the KX to Stevenage punters will find themselves in Grantham.

 

[James90012]

The PU/SD restrictions will be quite a big change, LNER services are very well used at Stevenage and often I see people wait on the platform after a Thameslink has left for the LNER for whatever reason.

 

[Bald Rick]

The PU/SD restrictions will be quite a big change, LNER services are very well used at Stevenage and often I see people wait on the platform after a Thameslink has left for the LNER for whatever reason.

Probably because they have LNER only tickets for the journey. Which won’t be available in future.

 

[bramling]

Probably because they have LNER only tickets for the journey. Which won’t be available in future.

People like them because they’re non-stop, and probably because they’re more comfortable too. But the bottom line is they’re perceived as a superior way of getting to/from London.

It’s been the case for some years that the xx00ish GTR (be that its original Cambridge to London form, or the modern Cambridge to Brighton form) takes on conspicuously fewer people at Stevenage when it coincides with an LNER service, as is timetabled for most of the day. If the LNER service is delayed or cancelled for whatever reason then the GTR will take on noticeably more people.

 

[mityellow]

and quicker journey times to / from London.




Its been published. Look at RTT for the first week of the timetabke.

Sorry, but I don't think many regular users of Durham will agree they are gaining from this timetable. Yes, it looks like general journey time to/from London is 10 minutes quicker (except on Sundays when they might actually be slower, not checked them all?) but otherwise...

- Regular 45 minute+ gaps in arrival times into Newcastle (by far the most popular destination from Durham).
- Reduction (20 to 13 by my count) of London to Durham services on a Sunday.
- Potentially some LNER services being reduced from 9 car to 5 car (based on what is on this thread, not seen this confirmed).

Plus the loss of the Edinburgh LNER through services as previously discussed and no improvement to the pretty early last Newcastle to Durham service in the evening (think it's actually a couple of minutes earlier from December).

Also now no chance of the briefly appearing 2nd TPE service which stopped at Durham returning in the near future or for completeness the once promised direct Northern Connect service to Stockton (not that that one ever seemed likely, as much as it would help much lacking local connectivity).

London being almost hourly clockface rather than a bit messy seems a big improvement if London is indeed the main destination.

You're probably right on Newcastle services overall but it's not terrible.

Newcastle is by far the biggest destination from Durham - for 2023/4 it was:
Newcastle - 557,748
London Kings Cross - 199,209
York - 85,424
Darlington - 63,078
Edinburgh - 55,989
Leeds - 42,825
(Using railwaydata.co.uk)

They were pretty much clockface leaving London for Durham before anyway. Other direction was a little messier but normally xx:4x so not really that bad - especially as it's not a journey many don't buy in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People like them because they’re non-stop, and probably because they’re more comfortable too. But the bottom line is they’re perceived as a superior way of getting to/from London.

It is I guess very similar to the Avanti vs. WMT thing at Milton Keynes Central (much further out than Watford) or indeed GWR at Reading. Avanti/Virgin cut back at MKC a bit but there are still three an hour albeit some with peak restrictions. If MKC lost all its Avanti services to/from London there would be uproar.

 

[OneOfThe48]

If MKC lost all its Avanti services to/from London there would be uproar.

It will be interesting to see how people in Stevenage react to the news once they find out

 

[Ec91109]

I find it interesting how LNER think it’s more viable to cancel a whole service (Harrogate and return) to use the intended stock on the Newcastle diagram rather than send an IC225 to Newcastle to cover the diagram it was originally intended for. It seems they are going to quite the lengths to avoid sending the 225 there which I’m sure there are reasons for but it seems like generally poor planning overall. Operational issues are clearly getting in the way of running a service rather than a solution be found for them.

 

[800001]

I find it interesting how LNER think it’s more viable to cancel a whole service (Harrogate and return) to use the intended stock on the Newcastle diagram rather than send an IC225 to Newcastle to cover the diagram it was originally intended for. It seems they are going to quite the lengths to avoid sending the 225 there which I’m sure there are reasons for but it seems like generally poor planning overall. Operational issues are clearly getting in the way of running a service rather than a solution be found for them.

Especially when they have had how many months/years to plan for this timetable?

 

[xotGD]

Interesting that the Harrogate service gets cancelled so that the Newcastle can run, rather than just cancelling the Newcastle (or terminating it short at York).

 

[800001]

Interesting that the Harrogate service gets cancelled so that the Newcastle can run, rather than just cancelling the Newcastle (or terminating it short at York).

What do you do with set if terminating at York?
It can't sit there for several hours until it's return working.

 

[Magdalia]

Sorry, but I don't think many regular users of Durham will agree they are gaining from this timetable.

Newcastle is by far the biggest destination from Durham - for 2023/4 it was:
Newcastle - 557,748
London Kings Cross - 199,209
York - 85,424
Darlington - 63,078
Edinburgh - 55,989
Leeds - 42,825
(Using railwaydata.co.uk)

I have to confess that my interest in the 2025 ECML timetable has been parochial, Great Northern and Thameslink services, and especially the new Cambridge South station.

But, taking a wider perspective, I think that Durham-Newcastle has been very badly treated.

There are probably fewer than 20 station to station flows outside of London that are bigger than 500k one way/1m two way. Most are in Glasgow, Manchester or Birmingham. The only others that I know of, that compare with Durham-Newcastle, are York-Leeds, Bath-Bristol and Ely-Cambridge. I know the Ely-Cambridge traffic quite well, and Durham-Newcastle is getting a very raw deal in comparison.

 

[35B]

From the comments of my son (a student in Durham), the effect is likely to be people stopping using rail. The bus is already seen as a viable alternative; if the service falls, then that will be more attractive. And for those using Durham as a railhead, I can see "why bother" being a reaction rather than travelling into Newcastle.

 

[43 302]

From the comments of my son (a student in Durham), the effect is likely to be people stopping using rail. The bus is already seen as a viable alternative; if the service falls, then that will be more attractive. And for those using Durham as a railhead, I can see "why bother" being a reaction rather than travelling into Newcastle.

Really? There is still roughly 3.5 trains per hour from Durham to Newcastle. That's greater capacity than Leamington Spa to Birmingham for example, another uni town to the big city in the region.

 

[mernrith]

From the comments of my son (a student in Durham), the effect is likely to be people stopping using rail. The bus is already seen as a viable alternative; if the service falls, then that will be more attractive. And for those using Durham as a railhead, I can see "why bother" being a reaction rather than travelling into Newcastle.

X21 is indeed rather reliable albeit the occasional strikes of Go NE. Saves a few steps to uni as well!

 

[mernrith]

Really? There is still roughly 3.5 trains per hour from Durham to Newcastle. That's greater capacity than Leamington Spa to Birmingham for example, another uni town to the big city in the region.

These 3.5 trains comes within 17 minutes and there's nothing else for northbound trains. Doesn't sound too good to me, especially when the bus can get to Newcastle within an hour if A1(M) isn't too congested.
Southbound is indeed better - the largest gap is 25 minutes - but I do think more people would move away from rail. It's a rather bad timetable from the likes of Durham.

 

[Magdalia]

Really? There is still roughly 3.5 trains per hour from Durham to Newcastle. That's greater capacity than Leamington Spa to Birmingham for example, another uni town to the big city in the region.

Leamington-Birmingham flow is only about half of Durham-Newcastle. A more realistic comparison in the Birmingham area is Coventry.

As I said above, the most relevant comparisons are York-Leeds, Bath-Bristol and Ely-Cambridge.

 

[87015]

Really? There is still roughly 3.5 trains per hour from Durham to Newcastle. That's greater capacity than Leamington Spa to Birmingham for example, another uni town to the big city in the region.

But badly spaced out - not much good saying 3.5 an hour is good when there are more than 30 minute gaps in there.

 

[35B]

Leamington-Birmingham flow is only about half of Durham-Newcastle. A more realistic comparison in the Birmingham area is Coventry.

As I said above, the most relevant comparisons are York-Leeds, Bath-Bristol and Ely-Cambridge.

Not just that, but Durham is in many ways a dormitory for Newcastle.