December 2024 timetable change

[Harvey B]

It's a backward step, surely, on this route. A 185 replaced by a 150?

Would it not have been a better option to replace a 185 with either a 158, 170 or 195?.

 

[30907]

Would it not have been a better option to replace a 185 with either a 158, 170 or 195?.

For a 40-min end-to-end journey it's hardly a priority, surely. The Manchester leg is still 185s of course but running via Castleford to York.

 

[87015]

The annual ARL day out to London Bridge is now published for this timetable

Realtime Trains | Departures from London Bridge between 0200 and 0159 on 15/03/2025

Train information at London Bridge between 0200 and 0159 on 15/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43055]

Interestingly the 1638 Derby to Cardiff today was advertising it still having first class on the screens.

 

[duffield]

Interestingly the 1638 Derby to Cardiff today was advertising it still having first class on the screens.

Edit: Removed original post based on misunderstanding, replaced with below:

Shows as "standard only" in RTT today and yesterday, so I guess different data sources are out of sync.

 

[MasterPhillips]

GWR has retimed the weekday 19:02 PAD to BRI train to 19:00 and it's no longer Super Off Peak to BRI. Genius.

Now have to wait for the 19:30 service.

GWR have said it is due to capacity reasons. Agree it’s wrong but the 1902 was always incredibly busy.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

GWR have said it is due to capacity reasons. Agree it’s wrong but the 1902 was always incredibly busy.

If it was always that busy, surely it makes sense to retime it into the period when cheaper tickets aren’t valid? That’s how you manage loadings on overcrowded services.

 

[xotGD]

If it was always that busy, surely it makes sense to retime it into the period when cheaper tickets aren’t valid? That’s how you manage loadings on overcrowded services.

Or ease the restrictions on the previous train to spread the load, rather than having Peak trains running half empty.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Or ease the restrictions on the previous train to spread the load, rather than having Peak trains running half empty.

True, although it will depend on how the revenue yield works out. The reality is that a half-full train of peak fares may be more remunerative than a full train of super-off peaks.

 

[MasterPhillips]

If it was always that busy, surely it makes sense to retime it into the period when cheaper tickets aren’t valid? That’s how you manage loadings on overcrowded services.

But all that will happen is the next service will be busier instead. Surely a busy train is a sign to increase capacity not to make things more inconvenient for passengers on cheaper tickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was always that busy, surely it makes sense to retime it into the period when cheaper tickets aren’t valid? That’s how you manage loadings on overcrowded services.

First off peak/super off peak trains are always busy. One of the few benefits of LNER's fare increase trial is removing this cliff edge. However it can be smoothed by way of Advances even without such measures - I'd imagine some will be released on the 1900 to try to do this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2024 ==

But all that will happen is the next service will be busier instead. Surely a busy train is a sign to increase capacity not to make things more inconvenient for passengers on cheaper tickets

You can't increase capacity beyond a 9/10-car train - or does this one run as 5?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Shall we create a thread for "What could/should have happened in the December 2024 timetable change, but didn't?"

The 06:41 Buxton to Manchester didn't go to a booked 4-car operation for a kick off.

 

[MasterPhillips]

You can't increase capacity beyond a 9/10-car train - or does this one run as 5?

It is booked as a 9 car and almost always is. So admittedly there is not much that can be done. But imo these types of decisions give the impression of treating customers as an inconvenience rather than paying customers.

 

[Discuss223]

According to page 3 of Railfuture's Six Shires Rail October 2024 Cross Country Stansted Airport – Leicester – Birmingham, and Nottingham – Birmingham – Cardiff services will be standard class only from the start of the new timetable on 15 December. I assume this means the nine first class seats on the three car class 170 trains will become standard class seats so all 200 seats on these class 170 Cross Country trains will be standard class. This is confirmed by the following references to Cross Country services on 16 December in Real Time Trains.

This is a great shame. Cardiff Central-Nottingham is certainly an Intercity route and should have a First Class option. The Department For Transport stipulated that CrossCountry should introduce a First Class package for customers on these routes when the franchise was awarded back in 2007. I will miss the big comfortable chairs and the side trays for holding drinks, as well as the First Class catering. There is also the elephant in the room of what happens on the Cardiff-Nottingham or Nottingham-Bournemouth services that are operated by Voyager services. Surely they won't let Standard Class customers use Coach A, it would get bashed up in no time like the seats in Standard Class sadly have been.

 

[father_jack]

GWR have said it is due to capacity reasons. Agree it’s wrong but the 1902 was always incredibly busy.

1930 was first Super Off-Peak for years and I think the restriction is "1901 and later" so the 1902 slipped in as SSR due to a retiming.

 

[dk1]

This is a great shame. Cardiff Central-Nottingham is certainly an Intercity route and should have a First Class option. The Department For Transport stipulated that CrossCountry should introduce a First Class package for customers on these routes when the franchise was awarded back in 2007. I will miss the big comfortable chairs and the side trays for holding drinks, as well as the First Class catering. There is also the elephant in the room of what happens on the Cardiff-Nottingham or Nottingham-Bournemouth services that are operated by Voyager services. Surely they won't let Standard Class customers use Coach A, it would get bashed up in no time like the seats in Standard Class sadly have been.

I have never known 1st class accommodation to get ‘bashed up’ just because it’s declassified. I think you’ll find that the standard class has just had far more use hence the wear and tear. The furnishings are far stronger than you give them credit for.

 

[weeklycommuter]

This is a great shame. Cardiff Central-Nottingham is certainly an Intercity route and should have a First Class option. The Department For Transport stipulated that CrossCountry should introduce a First Class package for customers on these routes when the franchise was awarded back in 2007. I will miss the big comfortable chairs and the side trays for holding drinks, as well as the First Class catering. There is also the elephant in the room of what happens on the Cardiff-Nottingham or Nottingham-Bournemouth services that are operated by Voyager services. Surely they won't let Standard Class customers use Coach A, it would get bashed up in no time like the seats in Standard Class sadly have been.

Many train operators have abolished first class completely as usage has dropped so much it is no longer worth having. It reduces the overall number of seats and complicates fares and revenue protection. Replacing it with standard class seating increases the number of seats overall making the train service more attractive and enabling more money to be made overall from fares. I would never pay for first class on any train service in Great Britain, I would like to see first class abolished and all first class seating on trains replaced with a far greater number of standard class seats.

 

[duffield]

Many train operators have abolished first class completely as usage has dropped so much it is no longer worth having. It reduces the overall number of seats and complicates fares and revenue protection. Replacing it with standard class seating increases the number of seats overall making the train service more attractive and enabling more money to be made overall from fares. I would never pay for first class on any train service in Great Britain, I would like to see first class abolished and all first class seating on trains replaced with a far greater number of standard class seats.

Abolishing 1st on longer distance intercity services (GWR, LNER etc.) to London, and on XC (edit: Voyager routes) would throw away a lot of revenue. 1st is still frequently fully occupied on some of these services**. There are still quite a lot of business travellers on these routes who work on these trains and pay substantial fares, and they would quite likely abandon the railways totally and drive if 1st was abolished. The result would be higher standard fares and/or subsidies.

On some trains, particularly the XC Voyagers, abolishing 1st would only add a handful of seats (maybe 10-12) and barely make a dent on the serious overcrowding.

** E.g. Recent experience: Leaving Kings Cross on a 9 coach Azuma - about 3 1st seats free in 2.5 coaches. Leaving Leeds on a Kings Cross bound service from Harrogate - all seats occupied apart from 2 no-show reservations. Cross country Derby to Leeds, Birmingham to Bristol - 1st fully occupied.

 

[Harpo]

Many train operators have abolished first class completely as usage has dropped so much it is no longer worth having. It reduces the overall number of seats and complicates fares and revenue protection. Replacing it with standard class seating increases the number of seats overall making the train service more attractive and enabling more money to be made overall from fares. I would never pay for first class on any train service in Great Britain, I would like to see first class abolished and all first class seating on trains replaced with a far greater number of standard class seats.

Many who advocate the abolition of first class are often indulging in the politics of envy.

Where first class continues to exist, it’s a fair assumption that it’s more generative for the rail industry than declassifying would be. If not, DfT would have had it abolished.

Remove that additional layer of income and there is a funding gap left for either taxpayer or (standard class) ticket buyer to make good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Abolishing 1st on longer distance intercity services (GWR, LNER etc.) to London, and on XC would throw away a lot of revenue. 1st is still frequently fully occupied on some of these services**.

It depends what you mean by XC. The Class 170 services are really regional services that are with XC because they don't fit well elsewhere, formerly they were Central Trains services. If they were operated by WMT or TfW they wouldn't have first class.

Don't see these as Cardiff to Nottingham services, the end to end traffic there will be small (see also Liverpool to Norwich). They are regional services where people are mostly making short, often overlapping intermediate journeys.

 

[Harpo]

It depends what you mean by XC. The Class 170 services are really regional services that are with XC because they don't fit well elsewhere, formerly they were Central Trains services. If they were operated by WMT or TfW they wouldn't have first class.

Don't see these as Cardiff to Nottingham services, the end to end traffic there will be small (see also Liverpool to Norwich). They are regional services where people are mostly making short, often overlapping intermediate journeys.

It’s also only a few years since Hendy’s union connectivity review advocated better rolling stock, infrastructure and timetables for Cardiff to Birmingham, something that Mark Harper studiously ignored in his response to it.

Personally, I’d like to see Cardiff to Birmingham transferred to TfW as I suspect they would nurture it and grow it in the same way as their Manchester services.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Transport for Wales offer the following services with first class but all their other services including between Cardiff and Holyhead and between Cardiff and Manchester are standard class only

Discover First Class train tickets | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

We run First Class train services between Swansea and Manchester, and Cardiff and Holyhead.
On weekdays, we run:
6 services each way between Cardiff and Manchester
1 services from Cardiff to Holyhead
1 service from Holyhead to Cardiff
On weekends, we run:
6 services each way between Cardiff and Manchester
1 service from Swansea to Manchester on a Saturday
2 services each way between Swansea and Manchester on a Sunday

 

[duffield]

It depends what you mean by XC. The Class 170 services are really regional services that are with XC because they don't fit well elsewhere, formerly they were Central Trains services. If they were operated by WMT or TfW they wouldn't have first class.

Don't see these as Cardiff to Nottingham services, the end to end traffic there will be small (see also Liverpool to Norwich). They are regional services where people are mostly making short, often overlapping intermediate journeys.

I was referring to Voyager routes, I should have specified. Original post edited.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Abolishing 1st on longer distance intercity services (GWR, LNER etc.) to London, and on XC (edit: Voyager routes) would throw away a lot of revenue. 1st is still frequently fully occupied on some of these services**. There are still quite a lot of business travellers on these routes who work on these trains and pay substantial fares, and they would quite likely abandon the railways totally and drive if 1st was abolished. The result would be higher standard fares and/or subsidies.

On some trains, particularly the XC Voyagers, abolishing 1st would only add a handful of seats (maybe 10-12) and barely make a dent on the serious overcrowding.

** E.g. Recent experience: Leaving Kings Cross on a 9 coach Azuma - about 3 1st seats free in 2.5 coaches. Leaving Leeds on a Kings Cross bound service from Harrogate - all seats occupied apart from 2 no-show reservations. Cross country Derby to Leeds, Birmingham to Bristol - 1st fully occupied.

First class really depends on the service offering and on long distance services it still works, I personally wouldn't pay extra on the Norwich to London first class as it doesn't really offer much, seats are wider than standard but not really much more comfortable and getting a free cup of coffee doesn't really sell it for me.
In reality I think it was more of a political decision to have first class on that run as it was probably a step too far going from the mark 3s first class with proper buffet car to all standard with a counter or trolley service in one go. Next refurb of the 745s imo will be all standard and trolley service to reduce the pot luck of getting first if you get 745/0 or all standard 745/1.

On the other hand first class on LNER or Avanti is worth while for that distance and I think will develop into a better and better product, similar to how business class on airlines has developed.

 

[Peter0124]

There are some services were First Class seems pretty pointless, Thameslink being one of them. Especially when you can just goto the back.

But for IC operators like Avanti/LNER were you could be doing 4+ hour journeys it should stay