December 2024 timetable change

[3RDGEN]

Does that mean everything South TPE will now be booked 6-car?

Believe it's going from four to six of the eight diagrams that will be booked for 6-car, TPE December diagrams are available at "https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/diagrams_from_dec_2024_jun_2025_2026".

 

[DaveHarries]

[...]Meanwhile, and still on the topic of TfW and GWR, the same board I saw at Exeter St. Davids also said that, starting from 15th December, "some services will be amended by up to 11 minutes due to significant changes to Transport for Wales services in South Wales."

A bit more on TfW's changes for December 2024 can be found here. More calls for certain stations in South Wales as well as more trains for Milford Haven and Fishguard Harbour.

December rail timetable changes bring improvements for passengers

A major rail timetable change will see train times change significantly in December, allowing for increased services at some stations, later services from Cardiff Central and Swansea, trains leaving at the same time past each hour and more new trains.

news.tfw.wales

Dave

 

[3RDGEN]

The Dec 2024 timetable is now available for download "https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/electronic-national-rail-timetable/" - electronic National Rail Timetable separate PDFs.

 

[Farigiraf]

A bit more on TfW's changes for December 2024 can be found here. More calls for certain stations in South Wales as well as more trains for Milford Haven and Fishguard Harbour.

December rail timetable changes bring improvements for passengers

A major rail timetable change will see train times change significantly in December, allowing for increased services at some stations, later services from Cardiff Central and Swansea, trains leaving at the same time past each hour and more new trains.

news.tfw.wales

Dave

Cheltenham Spa services will from December terminate at Cardiff Central, with Maesteg-Ebbw Vale through services starting to run as promised.

Additionally the 09:30 from Manchester Piccadilly will terminate at Fishguard Harbour instead (arriving 15:30), then forming the 16:00 to Cardiff Central. This is great to see, although I do wonder who's going to do the full 6 hours from Manchester to Fishguard especially as there's no connecting ferry to Rosslare.

Swanline will also go up to hourly at peaks. Don't know why it can't be so the whole day.

No extra services to Pembroke Dock unfortunately.

 

[DaveHarries]

Swanline will also go up to hourly at peaks. Don't know why it can't be so the whole day.

My thoughts also: I am sure that there are many people who would use extra off-peak services if they were laid on.

Dave

 

[life210]

This might have been mentioned already, but the fast TPE services between Manchester Victoria and Leeds will almost be running as a metro service – leaving both ends at xx:00, xx:15, xx:30 and xx:45 – apart from the fact that the Newcastle service only calls at Huddersfield and the second intermediate stop for the Hull, Scarborough and Redcar / Saltburn services isn't the same one. That's also assuming that services will be on-time enough to leave consistent 15 minute gaps.

These departure times match the pre-Covid timetable albeit it was 2tph for Newcastle / Edinburgh and Manchester Airport. Hull was a stopper to Piccadilly.

What I’m more concerned about are the journey times, only Scarborough diagrams are 4X minutes between Leeds and Manchester, all others are more than 50 minutes

Also how to TPE justify keeping Newcastle to Edinburgh as a separate route rather than tagging with Liverpool - Newcastle?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Also how to TPE justify keeping Newcastle to Edinburgh as a separate route rather than tagging with Liverpool - Newcastle?

TPE services from Manchester/Liverpool are hourly to Newcastle, and Newcastle-Edinburgh services will be 5x daily from December, meaning there will always be terminators from the Pennines at Manchester. I believe there isn't enough capacity North of Newcastle on the ECML to have an hourly TPE service to Edinburgh via the ECML, even though I'm sure Leeds could do with an additional hourly service to Edinburgh on top of the XC service.

 

[A S Leib]

Also how to TPE justify keeping Newcastle to Edinburgh as a separate route rather than tagging with Liverpool - Newcastle?

Pathing? If the only way to have through services would be with 20+-minute waits at Newcastle, most people, especially to Darlington and York, would probably change at Newcastle. Attaching a 5 tpd service to an hourly one means most trains would terminate at Newcastle anyway.

Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick and Dunbar also have LNER and CrossCountry services to York / Leeds – if not as frequently as would be ideal – so if it's deemed too problematic to join up services, Northumberland / Borders – Manchester and East Linton / Reston – York were probably seen as small enough flows not to provide direct services for.

 

[Manda2194]

I’m just on a northern 331 from Wigan to Liverpool and the guard made an announcement saying that the 323 will replace the 331 in the December timetable. If so this is a massive surprise. Does anyone else know anything more about this.

 

[jfollows]

I’m just on a northern 331 from Wigan to Liverpool and the guard made an announcement saying that the 323 will replace the 331 in the December timetable. If so this is a massive surprise. Does anyone else know anything more about this.

Draft diagrams at post 537 above (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2024-timetable-change.271917/page-18#post-7017284)
Still shows some 331 workings, eg AN 807, AN 814. but AN 817 says "SWAP FOR 323?".
But not final diagrams anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

Other posts relate that Wigan and Blackpool will be a mix of 323 and 331, with more staff now trained on the former.

 

[Peter0124]

The 323 is definitely a downgrade on the 331 comfort wise, especially on the Blackpool - Manchester/Liverpool fasts

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 323 is definitely a downgrade on the 331 comfort wise, especially on the Blackpool - Manchester/Liverpool fasts

Certainly, also not as good for high standing loads due to the tight 3+2 layout. Though to correct you slightly Northern don't operate any Blackpool-Manchester fasts, theirs is the local service calling at most stations. The Preston-Manchester fasts are the TPE from Scotland and the Northern Lakes/Furness DMU.

 

[thealexweb]

The 323 is definitely a downgrade on the 331 comfort wise, especially on the Blackpool - Manchester/Liverpool fasts

Re: Blackpool-Manchester

Four car 331s are being swapped for six cars worth of 323. That's an enormous increase in seats. My wife struggles to board at Lostock when its a single 331. This is one of the biggest service improvements in years.

 

[Peter0124]

Re: Blackpool-Manchester

Four car 331s are being swapped for six cars worth of 323. That's an enormous increase in seats. My wife struggles to board at Lostock when its a single 331. This is one of the biggest service improvements in years.

It used to be 6x 331 a year or two ago, did it not

 

[Bletchleyite]

It used to be 6x 331 a year or two ago, did it not

It did, yes, the 4-car sets were a temporary downgrade from 6.331. So we're really comparing 6.331 with 6.323.

 

[thealexweb]

It used to be 6x 331 a year or two ago, did it not

Yes but Northern was clear at the time it was never permanent.
A lot of these three car 331s are to go back to the North East where they were intended to be used.
There are no where near enough three car 331s in existence to provide every route with them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but Northern was clear at the time it was never permanent.
A lot of these three car 331s are to go back to the North East where they were intended to be used.
There are no where near enough three car 331s in existence to provide every route with them.

However during that period it was clear that that was the appropriaste amount of capacity.

 

[thealexweb]

Oh absolutely. The double 185s being rammed years ago proved that.

The two double 323s gives us 554 seats. Currently the four car 331s yield only 283….

 

[xotGD]

A lot of these three car 331s are to go back to the North East where they were intended to be used.

They're coming to Neville Hill, not Heaton!

 

[Kite159]

..

Oh absolutely. The double 185s being rammed years ago proved that.

The two double 323s gives us 554 seats. Currently the four car 331s yield only 283….

With no tables, 3+2 seating & no AC.

So yes where there is a increase of the number of seats, the passenger comfort decreases, especially if you are used to being able to work on the train

 

[cactustwirly]

..

With no tables, 3+2 seating & no AC.

So yes where there is a increase of the number of seats, the passenger comfort decreases, especially if you are used to being able to work on the train

Surely if it was such an issue you'd just change at Preston for a faster train to Manchester

You can't work from the train if you can't get a seat in the first place

 

[Kite159]

Surely if it was such an issue you'd just change at Preston for a faster train to Manchester

You can't work from the train if you can't get a seat in the first place

Not really an option if you live on the line between Preston & Manchester. Chorley passengers will still have the option of hopelessly overcrowded 195s but everybody else will be enjoying the 3+2 luxury.

Bit like how customers of stations between Reading & Paddington got given 387s before those were replaced by the Metro Spec 345s

 

[Starmill]

Oh absolutely. The double 185s being rammed years ago proved that.

The two double 323s gives us 554 seats. Currently the four car 331s yield only 283….

But you just said yourself above that Northern were clear that the use of the four cars was never permanent.

It's unsurprising that four cars are problematic. Everyone knew they would be. The only alternative was to keep 319s going longer.

 

[317 forever]

TPE services from Manchester/Liverpool are hourly to Newcastle, and Newcastle-Edinburgh services will be 5x daily from December, meaning there will always be terminators from the Pennines at Manchester. I believe there isn't enough capacity North of Newcastle on the ECML to have an hourly TPE service to Edinburgh via the ECML, even though I'm sure Leeds could do with an additional hourly service to Edinburgh on top of the XC service.

Will there now be through trains from Manchester or even Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle?

 

[Starmill]

Will there now be through trains from Manchester or even Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle?

No. Only the existing one, 1911 Edinburgh to Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Com166]

A bit more on TfW's changes for December 2024 can be found here. More calls for certain stations in South Wales as well as more trains for Milford Haven and Fishguard Harbour.

December rail timetable changes bring improvements for passengers

A major rail timetable change will see train times change significantly in December, allowing for increased services at some stations, later services from Cardiff Central and Swansea, trains leaving at the same time past each hour and more new trains.

news.tfw.wales

Dave

Fishguard train no longer goes via Swansea district line

 

[anthony263]

Cheltenham Spa services will from December terminate at Cardiff Central, with Maesteg-Ebbw Vale through services starting to run as promised.

Additionally the 09:30 from Manchester Piccadilly will terminate at Fishguard Harbour instead (arriving 15:30), then forming the 16:00 to Cardiff Central. This is great to see, although I do wonder who's going to do the full 6 hours from Manchester to Fishguard especially as there's no connecting ferry to Rosslare.

Swanline will also go up to hourly at peaks. Don't know why it can't be so the whole day.

No extra services to Pembroke Dock unfortunately.

It was promised in the December 2023 timetable consultation and was just a shuttle between Cardiff abd Swansea mostly but now TFW got a clever idea to send them to Pembroke Dock

 

[frodshamfella]

This is a very exaggerated story..

Huge increase in trains to major UK city from Liverpool

LNR is making a major change to its timetables

www-liverpoolecho-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[ctrh136]

Does anyone know if Thameslink 9L81 and 9L08 will still be a 700/0 or will be a /1 on the new timetable?

 

[Kite159]

This is a very exaggerated story..

Huge increase in trains to major UK city from Liverpool

LNR is making a major change to its timetables

www-liverpoolecho-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Agreed, about LNR increasing services to 2tph all day (Monday - Friday) rather than just in the peaks. At first I was thinking it would be about TPE bringing back the 2nd Liverpool - Manchester Victoria service again