December 2023 Timetable Change

[OliverH68]

SE, SWR & Hull Trains now up.

 

[Express380]

SE, SWR & Hull Trains now up.

I'm just waiting for GWR now

 

[PGAT]

Also waiting c2c, Greater Anglia, Heathrow Express and Transpennine to be up

 

[paddyb6]

Liverpool drops to 1 tph.

Liverpool down to 1tph is a disappointing, knowing how busy that corridor is.

 

[LittleAH]

Which rumour has it, as far as the North Route is concerned, is:

1tph Saltburn to Manchester Airport
1tph Newcastle to Liverpool
1tph Hull to Manchester Piccadilly

Supplemented by:

1 stopping service ph Huddersfield to Manchester (with 2 am journeys and 2 pm journeys extended to and from Wakefield / Castleford)
1 shuttle ph Scarborough to York

The Leeds - Huddersfield stopping service is withdrawn and stops added on to the Hull to Manchester service instead.
The hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle or Scarbrough service is withdrawn.

The end result is basically 2 x express trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester instead of the 4tph now. The Hull cannot be counted as an express as it has turned in to a stopping train. Liverpool drops to 1 tph. Newcastle drops to 1 tph. Scarborough is just a shuttle to York. Intermediate stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge drop to 1 tph all day, as opposed to 2tph at certain times now.

There are rumours of "peak time extras" but I can bet that these will be at the old pre-covid peak time and not the new peak time (i.e. all day Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) so won't actually be of much use.

If the above is true then it is a recipe for chaos and disaster as there will be chronic and severe overcrowding at the busy times - and that's even assuming they are all worked as 5 car 802s or 6 car 185s - which of course they won't, 3 car 185s will pop up all over the place.

The cynic in me thinks we will never see any service uplift for years afterwards and the reduction in service will be used as an excuse to have long term reductions.

I am hoping when it appears that it won't be as bad as it looks - but I fear it will. It will also prove mind numbingly boring and depressing for staff too - there will be far too many people with nothing to do just sitting around at many depots.

If Rail North Partnership sign it off. Given they apparently turned down an emergency timetable, I can’t see this being signed off unless it’s short term.

 

[Verulamius]

If Rail North Partnership sign it off. Given they apparently turned down an emergency timetable, I can’t see this being signed off unless it’s short term.

Nationalise TPE now!

Ah, oh... drat.

 

[CAF397]

The hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle or Scarbrough service is withdrawn.

Which would mean the only train capable of using the 25kV newly electrified line from Stalybridge to Guide Bridge in December is not going to operate.

That is a crazy waste of opportunity if true.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which would mean the only train capable of using the 25kV newly electrified line from Stalybridge to Guide Bridge in December is not going to operate.

That is a crazy waste of opportunity if true.

Why can Hull not? Presumably 802s will be used on as much as possible?

That said, infrastructure is for life not just for Christmas, and if this enables reliable operations it is absolutely the right thing to do.

 

[td97]

Liverpool drops to 1 tph

Liverpool down to 1tph is a disappointing, knowing how busy that corridor is.

2tph to Manchester counting the (unreliable) south route.

 

[Box]

The reason for the late startup is the need for maintenance work to take place. Passengers generally require earlier arrivals in London on Monday to Saturdays than Sundays so that’s why the service starts up later on that basis running earlier trains probably cannot be justified as the maintenance work would need to be done at another time which could potentially be more distruptive.

The early trains tend to be very busy, but this can be allowed for by running long trains. For example the first train from Bournemouth is 10 cars.

I can certainly see the logic for that but how often is such maintenance carried out that needs a late start-up, feels a bit like the tail wagging the dog?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Why can Hull not? Presumably 802s will be used on as much as possible?

That said, infrastructure is for life not just for Christmas, and if this enables reliable operations it is absolutely the right thing to do.

Hull services will be 185s.

There are no drivers or guards who sign 802s in Manchester or Hull, and it is those depots that work the route between Leeds and Hull.

 

[SC318250]

Scotrail now available

Half hourly (not sun) evening service Glasgow to Ayr
Sunday half hourly Glasgow to Gourock part of the day
Cathcart Circle services back

 

[Chiltern006]

As far as I can see there’s no massive changes for SE, the biggest one i’ve found at the moment is the removal of every 15-min Orpington stoppers from Victoria in the peak

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==

Bromley North is also half-hourly aswell

 

[OliverH68]

Bromley North is also half-hourly aswell

It has been half-hourly for as long as I've known it.

 

[PGAT]

As far as I can see there’s no massive changes for SE, the biggest one i’ve found at the moment is the removal of every 15-min Orpington stoppers from Victoria in the peak

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==

Bromley North is also half-hourly aswell

This is not true. The only service removed was the 1657 departure, other than that a 15 min frequency remains.

It has been half-hourly for as long as I've known it.

2tph off-peak, 3tph peak. This is staying the same

 

[ld0595]

Over the moon to see Cathcart Circle services back! Looks like there's a new 16:51 from Central which means I can avoid the 17:03 to Neilston when I go home from the office which is an incredibly overcrowded 3 coach 318/320.

I can see the morning Neilston service which runs fast from Muirend has also been reintroduced.

 

[hexagon789]

Scotrail now available

Half hourly (not sun) evening service Glasgow to Ayr
Sunday half hourly Glasgow to Gourock part of the day
Cathcart Circle services back

Mentioned upthread when the ScotRail services went in on Wednesday.

Along with the Glasgow to Aberdeen changes.

 

[3RDGEN]

Which rumour has it, as far as the North Route is concerned, is:

1tph Saltburn to Manchester Airport
1tph Newcastle to Liverpool
1tph Hull to Manchester Piccadilly

Supplemented by:

1 stopping service ph Huddersfield to Manchester (with 2 am journeys and 2 pm journeys extended to and from Wakefield / Castleford)
1 shuttle ph Scarborough to York

The Leeds - Huddersfield stopping service is withdrawn and stops added on to the Hull to Manchester service instead.
The hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle or Scarbrough service is withdrawn.

The end result is basically 2 x express trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester instead of the 4tph now. The Hull cannot be counted as an express as it has turned in to a stopping train. Liverpool drops to 1 tph. Newcastle drops to 1 tph. Scarborough is just a shuttle to York. Intermediate stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge drop to 1 tph all day, as opposed to 2tph at certain times now.

There are rumours of "peak time extras" but I can bet that these will be at the old pre-covid peak time and not the new peak time (i.e. all day Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) so won't actually be of much use.

If the above is true then it is a recipe for chaos and disaster as there will be chronic and severe overcrowding at the busy times - and that's even assuming they are all worked as 5 car 802s or 6 car 185s - which of course they won't, 3 car 185s will pop up all over the place.

The cynic in me thinks we will never see any service uplift for years afterwards and the reduction in service will be used as an excuse to have long term reductions.

I am hoping when it appears that it won't be as bad as it looks - but I fear it will. It will also prove mind numbingly boring and depressing for staff too - there will be far too many people with nothing to do just sitting around at many depots.

If that is the level of service TPE can provide consistently day in day out with the available resources then so be it, at least we will have a timetable that people can believe in. The cuts should see the back of the MkV's and allow 6 car 185's on all Saltburn & Hull services simplifying the operation and training requirements.

It presumably also allows time for route learning for future engineering work and the roll back of First TPE's diagramming of multiple crew on each service?

 

[Chiltern006]

This is not true. The only service removed was the 1657 departure, other than that a 15 min frequency remains.

2tph off-peak, 3tph peak. This is staying the same

my mistake, must’ve been looking at a saturday instead

 

[Geeves]

Good news on the new workable timetable for TPE. The current service from Victoria is generally 2 hourly with all the P code trains. So yes it's an improvement! Some days it's 4 hours without a single train

 

[Adam0984]

Northern have released their summary for the Dec change

May Timetable Changes

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

 

[YorksLad12]

Northern have released their summary for the Dec change

May Timetable Changes

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

I can't tell if the Knottingley and Doncaster entries are transposed, or just poorly written. There isn't a Knottingley call in the Doncaster-Leeds service, and the Knottingley-Leeds via Westgate doesn't currently call at Outwood.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Northern have released their summary for the Dec change

May Timetable Changes

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Looks like a lot of pruning formations and some peak service removals like the 17.51 Huddersfield to Sheffield. Presumably a cost saving initiative?

 

[Adam0984]

I can't tell if the Knottingley and Doncaster entries are transposed, or just poorly written. There isn't a Knottingley call in the Doncaster-Leeds service, and the Knottingley-Leeds via Westgate doesn't currently call at Outwood.

Basically the Leeds - Doncaster are going from 4 car 331s to 3 car 331s, to keep the capacity from Wakefield and Outwood the Knottingley to Leeds via Wakefield at peak times will be 4 car and call additionally at Outwood, as it is now the 1729 Knottingley is a 4 car 150 anyway as it splits at Knottingley

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Basically the Leeds - Doncaster are going from 4 car 331s to 3 car 331s, to keep the capacity from Wakefield and Outwood the Knottingley to Leeds via Wakefield at peak times will be 4 car and call additionally at Outwood, as it is now the 1729 Knottingley is a 4 car 150 anyway as it splits at Knottingley

Sounds logical as the railway strives towards Carbon Neutral to move passengers off electric trains to diesels…

 

[Adam0984]

Sounds logical as the railway strives towards Carbon Neutral to move passengers off electric trains to diesels…

The plan as far as I know is to put some 333s on the Doncaster Line for the 4 car capacity but crew training hasn't started for Doncaster crew so stuck with the 3 car 331s for now

 

[OliverH68]

Greater Anglia now up.

 

[dk1]

Greater Anglia now up.

I see next to no change SX. Very disappointing again.

 

[Kite159]

"Blackpool North – Manchester Airport: On quieter services, some trains will run as 4 carriages instead of 6."

So a single 4 coach 331 rather than a pair of 3 coach units or planned to be a 319?

Likewise for Liverpool - Manchester Airport stoppers, although a 4 coach 331 doesn't offer that many more seats than a 323 due to the more low density layout.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I see next to no change SX. Very disappointing again.

Yes but not surprised, no rolling stock for intercity or Stansted improvements, I think late September and October will be very busy and crowded, which may reflect in May changes as there will be another push for office return.