December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Alfie1014]

Timetable pdf files are now online for the following TOCs on their respective websites:

Avanti West Coast
CrossCountry
Gatwick Express
Grand Central
Great Northern
GWR
LNER
London Northwestern Railway
Northern
Southern
Southeastern
South Western Railway
TfL Elizabeth Line
West Midlands Railway

GA now added too.

 

[Bishopstone]

Haywards Heath gets Gatwick Express calls all day.

I see the Thameslink stopping pattern south of Gatwick Airport has been amended, to create a semi-fast pair calling at Three Bridges, Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill only, and a stopper pair calling everywhere.

 

[td97]

Just looking at the northen changes for dec

Some diagrams have been removed from the Rochdale to Blackburn service. Not quite a return to the promised 2tph.

 

[PGAT]

Apparently all trains through Gatwick Airport are having their times slightly tweaked because of the opening of Platforms 5 and 6

 

[dk1]

Our regional director at Northern said that the Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay service required one of the highest subsidies per passenger in the region, so that service will not return unless the DfT pay for it or another source of funding is found. And I think we can rule out the DfT for the foreseeable future.

Always liked that service outward on Grand National day when staying at The Village Warrington. Was absolutely perfect

 

[EGKK26L]

Very pleased to see Haywards Heath gain the GX stop (naturally), though on the other hand the fares will remain higher? Wasn't there a dispensation for Brighton users when SN stopped their Brighton-Vic fasts?

I always found the Thameslink calling patterns a bit erratic but 9S Cambridges become a bona-fide semi-fast now and 9T Bedfords becoming all-stop locals (though all that has happened is the 9S Balcombe stop has transferred to the 9Ts).

 

[Taunton]

I think London suffers more from Home Counties, white-collar commuters no longer ending their journey in the AM peak, and then starting their journey in the PM peak, as opposed to Greater London residents themselves for which demand has remained relatively stable.

This I believe is correct. Working from home has proved far more attractive to staff I know in London offices who live in Basingstoke or South Woodham Ferrers than to those who live in Romford (or Canary Wharf itself ). More of the longer commuters seem to have children at nicer schools (at least without having to pay for them) and more spacious houses for the money, which is why they are there, but the travel is a drag. Notably where offices now have policies of two or three days a week to come in, these people do the minimum, whereas those closer by are coming in sometimes for the full five days. I do notice that Mondays have now become something of a desert, on the roads as much as rail.

It will eventually have an impact through productivity and promotion. The at-homes are still working on the kitchen table, and stopping at 4pm when the kids come home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will eventually have an impact through productivity and promotion. The at-homes are still working on the kitchen table, and stopping at 4pm when the kids come home.

Eh? Permanent home workers are far more likely to have either a dedicated office room or converting a corner of a bedroom or dining room, and only one of my colleagues knocks off at 4 but he starts at 7, long before I've even got up.

 

[Chiltern006]

Haywards Heath gets Gatwick Express calls all day.

I see the Thameslink stopping pattern south of Gatwick Airport has been amended, to create a semi-fast pair calling at Three Bridges, Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill only, and a stopper pair calling everywhere.

all the more reason to get rid of the GX brand altogether and run it as a Southern service.

 

[WizCastro197]

all the more reason to get rid of the GX brand altogether and run it as a Southern service.

No not necessarily, any tickets can be used on Brighton-Gatwick Airport trains even those branded as GX.


It is practically a regular fast Thameslink/Southern train

 

[infobleep]

Yes but the changes only come into effect from January 3

So does this mean there are thameslink Littlehampton services to Bedford prior to 3 Jan or am I missing something else.

 

[cle]

all the more reason to get rid of the GX brand altogether and run it as a Southern service.

Completely. The issue is what to do with the other two - and could any of them have CJ/EC calls?

If consolidated with Southern services, maybe not all 4tph are needed and frequency could be evened out across all Southerns and the Gat Ex tph to enable those CJ/EC calls, and maybe give another path to LB/TL.

Or… Maybe give it up/retain for resilience.

Even dropping one, you’d still have about 8-10tph from Victoria to CJ/EC - Gatwick which is a great service, and likely better use of capacity.

 

[Watershed]

Completely. The issue is what to do with the other two - and could any of them have CJ/EC calls?

If consolidated with Southern services, maybe not all 4tph are needed and frequency could be evened out across all Southerns and the Gat Ex tph to enable those CJ/EC calls, and maybe give another path to LB/TL.

Or… Maybe give it up/retain for resilience.

Even dropping one, you’d still have about 8-10tph from Victoria to CJ/EC - Gatwick which is a great service, and likely better use of capacity.

The GX paths were able to accommodate calls at CJ/EC for the 2 year period when they were run under SN branding, whilst GX was "suspended". It's a political decision for these services not to call at CJ/EC.

 

[PGAT]

So does this mean there are thameslink Littlehampton services to Bedford prior to 3 Jan or am I missing something else.

TL aren’t going to Littlehampton at all until Jan 3

 

[WizCastro197]

TL aren’t going to Littlehampton at all until Jan 3

So services have effectively been withdrawn already?

 

[PGAT]

So services have effectively been withdrawn already?

Still running to and from Bedford today, but from 11 December they will be temporarily be withdrawn

 

[Adam Evans]

If you want pointless, the service at Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Chassen Road is it - if there's no desire to sort that, they should probably close - genuinely nobody will use 0.5tph in an urban area.

When I first read that the Liverpool-Oxford Road stoppers were to be split at Warrington Central I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the decision was taken to allow an all-day hourly service calling at all stations towards Manchester rather than just at peak time. There was least some logic behind that as the stations you've mentioned above are in the middle of areas with a sizeable suburban population who would definitely benefit from a more frequent service.
However the currently proposed changes won't give any of the benefits of a more regular service to those stations and instead just shafts other stations like Hunts Cross, Halewood and Warrington West which will now lose their direct service to Manchester whilst other stations on the Liverpool end which previously enjoyed a half-hourly service to Manchester will see that halved beyond Warrington.

 

[cle]

The GX paths were able to accommodate calls at CJ/EC for the 2 year period when they were run under SN branding, whilst GX was "suspended". It's a political decision for these services not to call at CJ/EC.

All four of them? Or just the Brighton extendees?

But yes I'd think that if there was a big recast, and all 4tph GatEx were put into a pool with the Southerns, you could make a very strong trunk service for those four stations (Vic, CJ, EC, Gatwick) and then look anew at where to send them all afterwards. Likely not that different but maybe some smarter stopping patterns or new opportunities. And maybe less wastage especially with Thameslink overlaid.

 

[EGKK26L]

All four of them? Or just the Brighton extendees?

But yes I'd think that if there was a big recast, and all 4tph GatEx were put into a pool with the Southerns, you could make a very strong trunk service for those four stations (Vic, CJ, EC, Gatwick) and then look anew at where to send them all afterwards. Likely not that different but maybe some smarter stopping patterns or new opportunities. And maybe less wastage especially with Thameslink overlaid.

I think they all extended to Brighton (at least during the week) due to a lack of terminating platform at Gatwick being available.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

All four of them? Or just the Brighton extendees?

But yes I'd think that if there was a big recast, and all 4tph GatEx were put into a pool with the Southerns, you could make a very strong trunk service for those four stations (Vic, CJ, EC, Gatwick) and then look anew at where to send them all afterwards. Likely not that different but maybe some smarter stopping patterns or new opportunities. And maybe less wastage especially with Thameslink overlaid.

Given changed travel patterns the timetable needs a rewrite but thats a 2-3 year job and until things are settled on MML and ECML no point fiddling with the South side especially as its largely fulfills most passenger needs.

 

[Starmill]

The GX paths were able to accommodate calls at CJ/EC for the 2 year period when they were run under SN branding, whilst GX was "suspended". It's a political decision for these services not to call at CJ/EC.

Indeed. And it's not a positive even in strict commercial terms either, because depriving Clapham Junction of nearly all services to Brighton (one early morning and one late evening service up, and a handful of late evening services down) is a serious disadvantage. It puts a large number of places which have fast trains to Clapham Junction at a journey time disadvantage.

 

[Greybeard33]

When I first read that the Liverpool-Oxford Road stoppers were to be split at Warrington Central I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the decision was taken to allow an all-day hourly service calling at all stations towards Manchester rather than just at peak time. There was least some logic behind that as the stations you've mentioned above are in the middle of areas with a sizeable suburban population who would definitely benefit from a more frequent service.
However the currently proposed changes won't give any of the benefits of a more regular service to those stations and instead just shafts other stations like Hunts Cross, Halewood and Warrington West which will now lose their direct service to Manchester whilst other stations on the Liverpool end which previously enjoyed a half-hourly service to Manchester will see that halved beyond Warrington.

The original MTF proposal to split all the CLC stoppers at Warrington Central was killed by the political outcry from Warrington. The skip-stop through stopper had to be retained in order that Warrington West could keep its hourly direct service to Manchester.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed. And it's not a positive even in strict commercial terms either, because depriving Clapham Junction of nearly all services to Brighton (one early morning and one late evening service up, and a handful of late evening services down) is a serious disadvantage. It puts a large number of places which have fast trains to Clapham Junction at a journey time disadvantage.

I would have thought it was commercial madness as well given what an attraction Brighton is not to give it good access from wealthy SW London

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I would have thought it was commercial madness as well given what an attraction Brighton is not to give it good access from wealthy SW London

Technically being the city of Brighton & Hove it does get direct trains from SW London.

 

[WizCastro197]

Technically being the city of Brighton & Hove it does get direct trains from SW London.

Yes, one can just change at Preston Park if one wishes to stay on a southern train for as long as possible or change at Hove.

On the subject, is there any indication that they will return? To be fair the network has fared pretty well without them so I guess there isn’t a massive need for them to return so soon

 

[infobleep]

TL aren’t going to Littlehampton at all until Jan 3

Got it. For some reason I thought they were but may be I just misunderstood what was written here.

 

[cle]

Yes, one can just change at Preston Park if one wishes to stay on a southern train for as long as possible or change at Hove.

On the subject, is there any indication that they will return? To be fair the network has fared pretty well without them so I guess there isn’t a massive need for them to return so soon

The network will cope with any cut in time, this isn't life or death. Think the flow of diverted water.

But Clapham Junction is a major interchange from all directions - folks from the WLL, from Richmond, Wimbledon etc - but also Vauxhall/Waterloo SWT, many others - who may want to reach Brighton cannot as easily. It used to have 2tph only calling at East Croydon. Even if all now call at Gatwick, it's still a huge downgrade. Far more useful than either Coastway.

 

[jfollows]

Full NRT now available at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

 

[BrianB]

Full NRT now available at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

Thankyou, you beat me to posting yet again!
Every effort has been made to try and achieve 100% accuracy, but comes with the usual caveat that human error is forever possible. It is also constantly subject to change, however every effort will be made to ensure that these changes are made in a timely manner, as a minimum on a weekly basis. Any table that is updated will have the word Updated xx/xx added to its file name. Remember, this reflects the Long Term Plan Timetable and therefore does not cover short term changes due to engineering work. For now table 220 is missing due to incomplete data for the Caledonian Sleeper, but this will be added as soon as possible. These are the same files that will be published on the Network Rail website in just over a weeks time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having alluded to it on another thread...

Does anyone know the reason why the south WCML has almost abandoned 12 car working yet isn't using much less stock due to quite a lot of peak extras? Is it so everything fits every platform at Euston once 12 car P16 is lost to HS2? I had more expected fewer extras but more of the standard pattern as 12s.