December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Peregrine 4903]

Wondering now if anyone revisits the Sutton Loop lobbyists - if we are simplifying conflicts. That Rainham needs to move to bolster the Cannon X - Gravesend - X service back to a metro. It's fine to drop CX on a line if the frequency is good, in theory. LB was rebuilt to make changing better, and has been a success. Not to mention that Crossrail at Abbey Wood (and for Woolwich itself) give another link into the West End, so this change is perfectly acceptable now.

Cannon St is ostensibly Bank tube now too, with the new entrance (and Bank works!) so connectivity - even on a weekend, is not so shabby.

I've always liked the quirky peak Blackfriars services. Sidcup via Nunhead is def a curious one.

Finally, on Hayes - I do like the idea of weaning them off City service years in advance of a Bakerloo - get it all west-end focused.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with that. Its getting rid of the conflicting moves at Lewisham.

 

[cle]

Who said it had anything to do with it? Throw away comment on Sutton, but re-read please.
Was a comment on the Rainham - and yes conflict minimization.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I was talking about the bakerloo Hayes comment.

I do wonder myself about the Wimbledon Loop though. Doubt it will happen but maybe a possibility

 

[cle]

Ahh ok yes well my devil face was supposed to mean it was a joke. Obviously has nothing to do with it!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Wondering now if anyone revisits the Sutton Loop lobbyists - if we are simplifying conflicts. That Rainham needs to move to bolster the Cannon X - Gravesend - X service back to a metro. It's fine to drop CX on a line if the frequency is good, in theory. LB was rebuilt to make changing better, and has been a success. Not to mention that Crossrail at Abbey Wood (and for Woolwich itself) give another link into the West End, so this change is perfectly acceptable now.

Cannon St is ostensibly Bank tube now too, with the new entrance (and Bank works!) so connectivity - even on a weekend, is not so shabby.

I've always liked the quirky peak Blackfriars services. Sidcup via Nunhead is def a curious one.

Finally, on Hayes - I do like the idea of weaning them off City service years in advance of a Bakerloo - get it all west-end focused.

Quite right to point this out. This is soft power in action and will potentially be very effective at making people rethink and use the Beckenham to Blackfriars if they’re in the Clock House / New Beckenham catchment. Kent House is very good…

 

[Starmill]

It was literally a 3 minute walk to Bank Underground anyway even before the improved access to Bank. Obviously getting between the Northern line at Bank and the platforms at London Cannon Street is still going to be a longer walk than that. But it's not as if it's really that disconnected.

 

[GoneSouth]

CrossCountry have been wanting to significantly reduce operations to Aberdeen (and Paignton) for ages now anyway.

And Penzance, hourly Bristol to Manchester, Doncaster, and some stations south of Reading! Only interested if it easy for THEM

 

[TRXsouth]

I do wonder myself about the Wimbledon Loop though. Doubt it will happen but maybe a possibility

Could you please expand on the Wimbledon Loop issues? Should its services terminate at Blackfriars so no longer cross London at all, or have a different London terminal or northern destination? And/or change the loop’s operator from Thameslink to Southern?

 

[43074]

I do wonder myself about the Wimbledon Loop though. Doubt it will happen but maybe a possibility

Wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea from the point of view of reducing conflicts at Loughborough Jn & Blackfriars Jn for Thameslink trains via Denmark Hill to run north of Blackfriars & Loop services to stay on the slow lines from Loughborough Jn & terminate in the bays at Blackfriars. Think that was in some of the early concepts of the Thameslink timetable until the user group for the Loop and Herne Hill didn't want to lose direct services north of Blackfriars.

 

[Barn]

If the North Kent Line services to Cannon Street via Lewisham will also call at St Johns and New Cross, I wonder what the arrival times will be into London Bridge. Feels like the next service via Greenwich would make up most of the difference?

 

[Class 466]

If the North Kent Line services to Cannon Street via Lewisham will also call at St Johns and New Cross, I wonder what the arrival times will be into London Bridge. Feels like the next service via Greenwich would make up most of the difference?

Charlton to London Bridge on a 2A via Lewisham currently takes 20 minutes whereas it's 15 via Greenwich.. All depends on the gap between them at Charlton and then the extended journey time on those 2As.

 

[adrock1976]

Could you please expand on the Wimbledon Loop issues? Should its services terminate at Blackfriars so no longer cross London at all, or have a different London terminal or northern destination? And/or change the loop’s operator from Thameslink to Southern?

Wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea from the point of view of reducing conflicts at Loughborough Jn & Blackfriars Jn for Thameslink trains via Denmark Hill to run north of Blackfriars & Loop services to stay on the slow lines from Loughborough Jn & terminate in the bays at Blackfriars. Think that was in some of the early concepts of the Thameslink timetable until the user group for the Loop and Herne Hill didn't want to lose direct services north of Blackfriars.

I did post in the main Thameslink or London Bridge thread a long time ago that the Sutton loop trains ideally could run Kentish Town - Blackfriars - Mitcham Junction - Sutton (Surrey) - Wimbledon - Blackfriars bay platforms with the frequency doubled to every 15 minutes as to compensate for the curtailment of the route.

Also, by having fixed termini points at both ends, it would be easier to recover the service from any major disruption if there are issues in the Thameslink core.

 

[cle]

Could you please expand on the Wimbledon Loop issues? Should its services terminate at Blackfriars so no longer cross London at all, or have a different London terminal or northern destination? And/or change the loop’s operator from Thameslink to Southern?

The bays at Blackfriars were built (relocated even) to be on the westner side, ideabeing that services via Elephant but notably via Herne Hill would usew them. And thus reducing conflicts and giving each set of services a distinct pair - ostensibly for future frequency increases. 8tph via Wimbledon/Mitcham (4tph each direction) was mentioned as a sop for this change, although how this would work at Wimbledon's single platform or Herne Hill's junction was never super clear.

But a local MP jumped on the bandwagon of local grumbling and it was cut - in favour of keeping Sevenoaks/Catford services crossing into the bays (not a horrible move I must add, plenty of opps and not a super busy line) with Kentish Town/WHT peak extensions which are now being used to link to the northern side.

If 8tph could be worked out, it would be a great increase in service, especially at the inner/trunk stations from Streatham north.

 

[Hedgehog1977]

Saturday is when the 4tph service via Penge is really needed, they’re very busy. Remember Penge W has lost all trains to central London too

Agree, Victoria to Shortlands is very, very busy on a Saturday.

15 mins runs until 0900 and from 1430

Only from 14:28 - 20:58 is the Vic to Orp every 15 mins. Very disappointing that the 15 minute service doesn't continue up to midnight as it did pre-covid. The half hourly service have been getting busier and busier especially in the '3rd rush' hour i.e when theaters and pubs and bars close. They're busy at Vic and get more loaded at Brixton and Herne Hill too. Doesn't currently seem to be 19:28 on RTT. An oversight i'm sure.

 

[SE%Traveller]

I think restoring the train service to 4tph on the Catford Loop would be a priority for that line, that's what it had pre covid. Its a real shame that turn up and go standard for London Metro is being quietly dropped on both Bromley South Lines.

to me going through the core would be the secondary prize (but I think either put them all through or have all reverse with at a regular 15min interval from Blackfriars).

15/ 15 minutes on VIC Darford would be nice too. that one also very quirte

 

[cle]

I think restoring the train service to 4tph on the Catford Loop would be a priority for that line, that's what it had pre covid. Its a real shame that turn up and go standard for London Metro is being quietly dropped on both Bromley South Lines.

to me going through the core would be the secondary prize (but I think either put them all through or have all reverse with at a regular 15min interval from Blackfriars).

15/ 15 minutes on VIC Darford would be nice too. that one also very quirte

I agree with this for VIC-Dartford although I could handle 2 x 2tph east of Lewisham. But yes we should be aiming for:
4tph Victoria - Orpington (slow)
4tph TL/Blackfriars - Shortlands (slow via Catford) - and then 2tph via Bat & Ball, 2tph Bromley South/Orpington/wherever
4tph Victoria - Nunhead & Lewisham (slow) and then 2tph via Bexleyheath, 2tph via Sidcup - onwards if needed.

 

[Bald Rick]

although how this would work at Wimbledon's single platform or Herne Hill's junction was never super clear.

The timetable had them parallel at Herne Hill (they are 7/8 mins apart now), and sufficiently apart at Wimbledon to make it work. Although obviously the latter would be a place where small reactionary delay would build - but rarely more than 3 minutes.

 

[cle]

Was there once upon a time talk of a Tramlink rebuild/move (part of the Sutton plan? Did that end up at South Wimbledon? I lost track) - which would have given Wimbledon its platforms?

Although ironically a Tramlink conversion of NR south of there could enable 4tph to terminate at Wimbledon, which is probably good enough. The other 4tph out of Blackfriars, if needed for inners - might run down to Sutton and onwards (Epsom/ Epsom Downs) - could even release some Victoria.

 

[Basil Jet]

December timetables have started appearing on the Fab Digital site. At time of posting, only timetables 010 to 020 are there.

https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

 

[frodshamfella]

The locals will be delighted at that decision!

You were right, there are some very big changes.

Won't go down well at all, CS only in off peak !

 

[BrianB]

December timetables have started appearing on the Fab Digital site. At time of posting, only timetables 010 to 020 are there.

https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2022/

You beat me to it, I was going to make a post this morning advising everyone. They come with the usual caveat that what you see is the situation as of now, and all are subject to further change as more data comes downstream. Indeed, only this morning I have already had to make minor changes to some of those already posted due to changes in the data overnight. Further tables will appear in batches, including up to 059 later today., after that my plan is to continue to work through them sequentially as far as possible, however where I anticipate rolling changes I may miss some tables for now and come back to them later. Ultimately, the only versions that can ever be considered 'final' will be those that are delivered to, and published by in tandem by Network Rail, approx 3 weeks before the start date

 

[James90012]

Won't go down well at all, CS only in off peak !

They will get Victoria too but loss of Charing Cross will be controversial.

 

[frodshamfella]

They will get Victoria too but loss of Charing Cross will be controversial.

Yes it will, it has been the main terminus for ever.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes it will, it has been the main terminus for ever.

Things change and people need to start thinking about it as such. Many folk who go from Barnehurst, Bexleyheath, Welling and possibly Eltham will re-route to Crossrail, so the market you are trying to keep is reducing in size naturally. Lewisham to Charing Cross traffic being from Sidcup and Sevenoaks makes sense, and you can actually get direct from places like Sevenoaks and Gravesend to Lewisham for the first time in a long time if I’ve read it correctly.

 

[carriageline]

It's got absolutely nothing to do with that. Its getting rid of the conflicting moves at Lewisham.

Doesn’t this just move the issue to Tanners Hill?

Can’t see any 2O/I services in the TT either

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Doesn’t this just move the issue to Tanners Hill?

Can’t see any 2O/I services in the TT either

Well if your timetable allows a set number of conflicts at Tanners Hill, there’s no point then also having a multitude of conflicts at Lewisham. You might as well separate the two halves and then reduce any delays and knock-ons to halves of stations rather than also pulling up stuff from Cannon to Hayes or Orpington to Cannon etc.

 

[cle]

Things change and people need to start thinking about it as such. Many folk who go from Barnehurst, Bexleyheath, Welling and possibly Eltham will re-route to Crossrail, so the market you are trying to keep is reducing in size naturally. Lewisham to Charing Cross traffic being from Sidcup and Sevenoaks makes sense, and you can actually get direct from places like Sevenoaks and Gravesend to Lewisham for the first time in a long time if I’ve read it correctly.

It's changed a lot but traditionally the Gillingham semi-fast was via Lewisham. There is a Gravesend slow (Victoria?) and then a faster service via Sidcup. The HS1 services pick up the faster Medway, and the Rainham nonsense of course we know about.

I agree on the change of service. This route has likely changed more than most in terms of options in the last 20 years. Two DLR routes (Lewisham/Greenwich and Woolwich Arsenal) bringing a lot of TPH and connections to Docklands, City and Stratford. Plus at the Medway end, HS1 bringing new connections and super fast to KXSP area (and Stratford again) - so yes some flux but it's never been better for SE London and inner North Kent really. The ELL is worth a mention for the New Cross (inc Gate) area too, plus connections there.

And now Crossrail, amazing change really, vs the 90s/00s.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Things change and people need to start thinking about it as such. Many folk who go from Barnehurst, Bexleyheath, Welling and possibly Eltham will re-route to Crossrail, so the market you are trying to keep is reducing in size naturally. Lewisham to Charing Cross traffic being from Sidcup and Sevenoaks makes sense, and you can actually get direct from places like Sevenoaks and Gravesend to Lewisham for the first time in a long time if I’ve read it correctly.

Crossrail doesn’t do anything for the Bexleyheath line, the time they will bus it to Abbey Wood or Woolwich they may as well be at London Bridge.

 

[carriageline]

Well if your timetable allows a set number of conflicts at Tanners Hill, there’s no point then also having a multitude of conflicts at Lewisham. You might as well separate the two halves and then reduce any delays and knock-ons to halves of stations rather than also pulling up stuff from Cannon to Hayes or Orpington to Cannon etc.

I do agree, but then the peaks the 2L/2M reappear so now you are conflicting more over both. Hmmm

 

[NorthKent1989]

Wondering now if anyone revisits the Sutton Loop lobbyists - if we are simplifying conflicts. That Rainham needs to move to bolster the Cannon X - Gravesend - X service back to a metro. It's fine to drop CX on a line if the frequency is good, in theory. LB was rebuilt to make changing better, and has been a success. Not to mention that Crossrail at Abbey Wood (and for Woolwich itself) give another link into the West End, so this change is perfectly acceptable now.

Cannon St is ostensibly Bank tube now too, with the new entrance (and Bank works!) so connectivity - even on a weekend, is not so shabby.

I've always liked the quirky peak Blackfriars services. Sidcup via Nunhead is def a curious one.

Finally, on Hayes - I do like the idea of weaning them off City service years in advance of a Bakerloo - get it all west-end focused.

Bank isn’t Charing Cross though, and not everyone wants to switch to a cramped tube either