December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Killingworth]

Some elements of Dec '22 now trickling through to RTT.

At the time of writing, GTR, Crossrail, Northern & Scotrail are available.

Good to see the full hourly stopping service at regular times will finally arrive along the Hope Valley between Sheffield and Manchester, eliminating infuriating skip stops that left gaps of over 2 hours at some stations.

The bad news is that the train that currently picks up most commuters into Sheffield from the Valley, arriving at 8.32, is to slip into the neat regular hourly arrival slot at 9.06. There has been an arrival at about 8.32 from the Hope Valley for most of the last 100 years!

 

[TC7]

Northern

New peak service between Manchester Victoria and Wigan North Western and vice versa, with those in peak direction also calling at Eccles

 

[boyaloud]

Big news for Manchester to Stoke. New 2246 Northern service on weekdays from December. This is a change to the current 2218 last train . Makes it more likely to see the end of theatre shows / gigs!

 

[Class 466]

The 9Nxx Bedford to Littlehampton services are curtailed to start/finish at London Bridge.

 

[BPN2022]

Any news on whether Northern are returning to a full service? Blackpool - Liverpool and the Colne route particularly? As there are still 2 hour gaps in places, where full unit circuits have been removed.

 

[ctrh136]

The 9Nxx Bedford to Littlehampton services are curtailed to start/finish at London Bridge.

Also looks like there will be 3 peak East Grinstead services rather than the 1 at the moment.

 

[Watershed]

Any news on whether Northern are returning to a full service? Blackpool - Liverpool and the Colne route particularly? As there are still 2 hour gaps in places, where full unit circuits have been removed.

Colne returns to full hourly, as do Ormskirk and Blackpool South (which of course are part of the same 5 unit circuit).

Blackpool North-Liverpool is also full hourly, with a half hourly Wigan-Liverpool stopper (though not clockface!).

 

[QQQ]

Any news on whether Northern are returning to a full service? Blackpool - Liverpool and the Colne route particularly? As there are still 2 hour gaps in places, where full unit circuits have been removed.

Sheffield to Leeds via Dearne and Sheffield to Doncaster/Adwick both seem to be back to hourly. The Brigg line and the 3 per day Sheffield to/from York are also shown as back. The weekday Gainsborough Central services are still shown as peak only, though.

 

[OliverH68]

Some interesting changes on the Redhill corridor.

The Gatwick Airport to Bedford trains pick up a South Croydon stop all day and also run through to Three Bridges.

These trains lose their Merstham stop in the morning peak but continue to stop at Coulsdon South. The Earlswood and Salfords stops are transferred to this service from the Peterborough train.

Both of these changes are going to be a disaster.

Merstham lose 2tph to London which of course is not going to go down too well. And does the South Croydon call really have much benefit for an area already surrounded by various bus routes?

Of course, any odd sign of disruption/delay is just going to see the South Croydon stop cancelled which will impact on performance.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

Interesting stuff - showing trains from Abbey Wood through to Heathrow, Reading and Maidenhead.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Abbey Wood between 0200 and 0159 on 12/12/2022

Train information at Abbey Wood between 0200 and 0159 on 12/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Iver and Taplow only get a half hourly off-peak service - Iver in the Maidenhead services and Taplow in the Reading services. Canary Wharf to Maidenhead takes about 60 minutes.

Indeed. Also showing Paddington to Shenfield services, 8tph Paddington to Abbey Wood (4 from Heathrow, 2 from Maidenhead, 2 from Reading) and 8tph Paddington to Shenfield. These are all showing from 6th November.

 

[jawr256]

Colne returns to full hourly, as do Ormskirk and Blackpool South (which of course are part of the same 5 unit circuit).

Based on the platform allocations (which of course could be amended) it looks like the Colne and Ormskirk services will interwork, but the Blackpool South service will generally be separate - indeed there are ECS workings timetabled for it to wait in the shunt line for half an hour at Preston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Based on the platform allocations (which of course could be amended) it looks like the Colne and Ormskirk services will interwork, but the Blackpool South service will generally be separate - indeed there are ECS workings timetabled for it to wait in the shunt line for half an hour at Preston.

They do seem to be playing with all the options for that! Does that give a more even use of recovery time than just going back to the 80s and putting two units on the Ormskirk passing at Rufford?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2022 ==

The bad news is that the train that currently picks up most commuters into Sheffield from the Valley, arriving at 8.32, is to slip into the neat regular hourly arrival slot at 9.06. There has been an arrival at about 8.32 from the Hope Valley for most of the last 100 years!

Though the one before leaves Hathersage 6 minutes earlier, so itself is off pattern! I do wonder why on a line like that they can't quite manage to just have a simple all-day pattern with no deviation other than possibly the last train to go a bit later. There are also off pattern ones in the evening and a random xx45 off Hathersage in the middle of all the xx44s - why not just leave the public timetable at xx44 for that?

 

[Watershed]

They do seem to be playing with all the options for that! Does that give a more even use of recovery time than just going back to the 80s and putting two units on the Ormskirk passing at Rufford?

It gives more recovery time and reduces the likelihood of delays spreading between the routes, although the crew will, by nature, have to interwork as Northern don't have a Preston crew depot.

 

[Peter0124]

Also the roughly two-hourly Glasgow Central to Edinburgh via Carstairs services are back.

 

[Watershed]

I do wonder why on a line like that they can't quite manage to just have a simple all-day pattern with no deviation other than possibly the last train to go a bit later.

Freight, in short. There isn't a standard freight path because there are different trailing loads, class 4 vs 6, different origins and destinations etc.

The passenger trains are generally clockface, it's everything else that isn't.

 

[43074]

Both of these changes are going to be a disaster.

Merstham lose 2tph to London which of course is not going to go down too well. And does the South Croydon call really have much benefit for an area already surrounded by various bus routes?

Of course, any odd sign of disruption/delay is just going to see the South Croydon stop cancelled which will impact on performance.

South Croydon is to compensate for reduced Southern Metro services.

Anyway there are bigger performance issues to worry about on the BML, looking at 9Ts between Brighton and Gatwick...

 

[Minstral25]

Some interesting changes on the Redhill corridor.

The Gatwick Airport to Bedford trains pick up a South Croydon stop all day and also run through to Three Bridges.

These trains lose their Merstham stop in the morning peak but continue to stop at Coulsdon South. The Earlswood and Salfords stops are transferred to this service from the Peterborough train.

The Reigate departures move earlier and form the front portion of the Victoria trains in the morning peak with the portion from Gatwick joining the rear at Redhill.

It's a bit more complex than that. The trains affected are from even number codes 9R06 to 9R18 - which are half hourly departures from Redhill from 06:18 to 09:18am. They mostly normally call at South Croydon now, so these are not extra calls.

All trains 9R06 to 9R18 lose their Merstham stop, but 9R06, 9R08, 9R16 & 9R18 also lose Coulsdon South Stop so even more missing calls. These trains do happen to be well loaded and normally call at South Croydon but from Dec 9R10/12 & 14 no longer call at South Croydon (SCY) as the 2 new & 1 existing East Grinstead Thameslink trains pick up SCY call.

Other than performance management there is no logical reason to cut these calls.

 

[JonathanH]

It's a bit more complex than that. The trains affected are from even number codes 9R06 to 9R18 - which are half hourly departures from Redhill from 06:18 to 09:18am. They mostly normally call at South Croydon now, so these are not extra calls.

Yes, already South Croydon calls in the peak northbound. The new thing I was commenting on was South Croydon calls off-peak and Saturdays on the 9Rxx services.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Gatwick express calls at Haywards heath all day from dec22.

 

[Watershed]

Gatwick express calls at Haywards heath all day from dec22.

Makes the dropped East Croydon & Clapham calls even more ridiculous.

 

[paul332]

Indeed. Also showing Paddington to Shenfield services, 8tph Paddington to Abbey Wood (4 from Heathrow, 2 from Maidenhead, 2 from Reading) and 8tph Paddington to Shenfield. These are all showing from 6th November.

Alas these seem to be spending inordinate amounts of time hanging about in stations - a full minute is twice as long as needed, anywhere; and also at Westbourne sidings and elsewhere for "pathing" and "passing trains". Eastbound from Heathrow waits 3 minutes at Westbourne, and from Reading a whopping 6-7 minutes, which will seem interminable. Travel time from Heathrow T23 to Paddington is 32 minutes, and Canary Wharf 50 minutes against 42 advocated. All of this totally negates the performance capabilities of the 345s, seems a complete waste of time and substantially undermines the experience. Maybe this will be rectified with the final timetable in May 2023, but it will certainly put people off.

 

[Minstral25]

Yes

Yes, already South Croydon calls in the peak northbound. The new thing I was commenting on was South Croydon calls off-peak and Saturdays on the 9Rxx services.

That was supposed to happen last May so no surprise there but yes I see what you meant

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2022 ==

Makes the dropped East Croydon & Clapham calls even more ridiculous.

East Croydon not an issue as 4x Thameslink per hour but Clapham Junction should really be resolved

 

[Southern Dvr]

South Croydon is to compensate for reduced Southern Metro services.

Anyway there are bigger performance issues to worry about on the BML, looking at 9Ts between Brighton and Gatwick...

What reduced Southern metro services?

S Croydon is served today only by the 1Pxx Cat & Tat workings and will continue to be served by them. The 2Txx Coulsdon Town workings went from the weekday timetable ages ago. The 2Jxx London Bridge via Tulse Hill workings have never stopped there.

 

[PGAT]

Will there be any changes on the Southern Metro from December 2022?

I might be too late but there are no current changes to the Southern metro in December.

BUT there are changes from September that I will list quickly:

- Watford Junction-Clapham Junction now runs all the way to East Croydon all day, with the first train out of East Croydon and the last train into East Croydon starting and terminating at Hemel Hempstead

- London Bridge-East Croydon stopping services via Forest Hill are gone

- London Bridge-London Victoria services will return and will compensate for the previously mentioned change

- London Bridge-Beckenham Junction via Tulse Hill is now 2tph off peak until 20:00

- London Victoria-West Croydon services now finish at 20:00

- London Victoria-Epsom services will be extended to Dorking/Horsham, but the semi-fast trains already running there will be axed. These services will call additionally at Hackbridge, Mitcham Junction, Mitcham Eastfields, Balham and Ewell East (Only trains bound for Horsham call at Ewell East)

- London Bridge-Caterham via Norbury will now be curtailed to East Croydon

- London Bridge-Caterham/Tattenham Corner will call additionally at Norwood Junction and some services will be formed of 10 carriages instead of 8.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2022 ==

What reduced Southern metro services?

S Croydon is served today only by the 1Pxx Cat & Tat workings and will continue to be served by them. The 2Txx Coulsdon Town workings went from the weekday timetable ages ago. The 2Jxx London Bridge via Tulse Hill workings have never stopped there.

Not necessarily reduced service but the trains that do stop at SCY are 8 instead of 10 and in the new timetable will new passengers from Penge West, Anerley, Norwood Junction, and the LBG-CAT via Norbury services now terminate at ECR so all the passengers from that route converge onto this service.

 

[northwichcat]

While the peak time extras between Stockport and Chester have reappeared, it seems they haven't done anything about the evening Stockport to Chester peak time extra being 50 minutes after the previous service and 10 minutes before the next one. I know MCRUA tried to get that changed when the draft timetable was published.

 

[Bald Rick]

Alas these seem to be spending inordinate amounts of time hanging about in stations - a full minute is twice as long as needed, anywhere; and also at Westbourne sidings and elsewhere for "pathing" and "passing trains". Eastbound from Heathrow waits 3 minutes at Westbourne, and from Reading a whopping 6-7 minutes, which will seem interminable. Travel time from Heathrow T23 to Paddington is 32 minutes, and Canary Wharf 50 minutes against 42 advocated. All of this totally negates the performance capabilities of the 345s, seems a complete waste of time and substantially undermines the experience. Maybe this will be rectified with the final timetable in May 2023, but it will certainly put people off.

Yes this is all temporary, and being resolved in May 23.

 

[northwichcat]

Big news for Manchester to Stoke. New 2246 Northern service on weekdays from December. This is a change to the current 2218 last train . Makes it more likely to see the end of theatre shows / gigs!

Yet the 23:47 Stoke to Stockport ECS is scheduled to wait at Stockport station for 25 minutes. Northern could run that in service to Stockport and it would provide useful connections from the last London to Stoke and Birmingham to Stoke services.

Sunday service also not enhanced on either the Stoke or Mid-Cheshire line. Northern were supposed to do that in 2017 and don't have the rolling stock and paths excuses that they've had for not implementing the promised weekday enhancements.

 

[td97]

Some very optimistic dwells on the Manchester - Preston corridor.
1Y54 (0653 Blackpool to Manchester Airport) has ½ minute dwells at 6 out of 7 stations between Preston and Bolton (currently 3/7). 1 minute is also unachievable at Bolton and Salford at peak time.
So it is expected to make do with 90s less dwell time, depart Preston 30s later, and arrive at Bolton 60s earlier! Not even the added pathing allowance allows for that.
At least the ridiculous, never previously achieved, 30s dwell at Deansgate has been increased to a minute.

 

[BrianW]

I hope the timetable planners can feel at least somewhat isolated/ protected from criticisms however well justified. It must be a nightmare trying to weave everything together across the complexity of the network, especially with the uncertainties of travel 'patterns' at present. So a word of thanks.

Reminding myself of the Castlefield and Thameslink 'issues'. Are summaries of 'Lessons Learned' available online somewhere?

 

[Kite159]

I see the bulk of the reduced hourly Manchester Oxford Road - Liverpool stoppers via Warrington Central are not calling at Deansgate