Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Though the XC link from Southampton is quite a key link, as it provides opportunity to head north while avoiding London. It also provides the only link to Reading and the Thames Valley (connections are otherwise poor) which is commutable distance.
Granted XC has a reputation for being overcrowded (which can put you off) but given appropriate-length trains, it's a useful service. It needs to continue to run as double units (as now), or longer units, but hourly. (Going OT maybe obtaining Meridians would facilitate this)
What a lot of people forget is that Southampton has vast number of cruise ship start and finishing their voyages. Regularly taking 20,000+ passengers per week. These people have luggage so don’t want to be crossing London by tube connections.
Unfortunately XC doesn’t really understand that there is a huge market from Southampton to Midlands, North and South Wales. It has virtually abandoned carrying people to Dorset and Wiltshire for holidays. So really need to rebuild cross country (and leisure traffic in general) at the heart of the next timetable.
Well of course Sheffield to Manchester and Leeds are considerably closers than 2 and a half hours away because the cities are far less miles apart.
I was using these cities as a comparison for journey times over a similar distance and there you find the time taken is comparable, of course if the nearer major city is closer you’ll generally get there quicker!
I’ll give you a different comparison then of a city that’s out on a limb like Plymouth, Aberdeen’s next biggest city is Edinburgh, it’s 125 miles the exact same miles as Bristol to Plymouth, has less direct trains and takes between 2hours 20 and 2hours 35, so very similar in all respects.
I’m not saying it wouldn’t be nicer to have quicker links, I’m just saying the service between Plymouth and Bristol is comparable to many others.
I just feel we need to be campaigning to concentrate levelling up not just in the north but in left behind areas like the south west and as long as Plymouth to Bristol isn't a fast and regular artery I think the far south west will be forever left behind. Still too many single voyager workings too on the NE SW axis.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
What a lot of people forget is that Southampton has vast number of cruise ship start and finishing their voyages. Regularly taking 20,000+ passengers per week. These people have luggage so don’t want to be crossing London by tube connections.
Unfortunately XC doesn’t really understand that there is a huge market from Southampton to Midlands, North and South Wales. It has virtually abandoned carrying people to Dorset and Wiltshire for holidays. So really need to rebuild cross country (and leisure traffic in general) at the heart of the next timetable.
In the good old days additional trains could have met the boats to transport these huge numbers of people. Sadly we no longer live in such entrepreneurial times.
I just feel we need to be campaigning to concentrate levelling up not just in the north but in left behind areas like the south west and as long as Plymouth to Bristol isn't a fast and regular artery I think the far south west will be forever left behind. Still too many single voyager workings too on the NE SW axis.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
In the good old days additional trains could have met the boats to transport these huge numbers of people. Sadly we no longer live in such entrepreneurial times.
While this is of course true, at the moment absolutely nowhere is receiving any meaningful reform that could be described as rebalancing the economy or driving up productivity. Certainly not in England anyway. Levelling up is, thus far, purely a piece of marketing designed to dovetail with the Conservative Party brand, not an actual government policy like increasing the rate of National Insurance Contributions for employees and employers was, for example
Unfortunately XC doesn’t really understand that there is a huge market from Southampton to Midlands, North and South Wales. It has virtually abandoned carrying people to Dorset and Wiltshire for holidays. So really need to rebuild cross country (and leisure traffic in general) at the heart of the next timetable.
I just feel we need to be campaigning to concentrate levelling up not just in the north but in left behind areas like the south west and as long as Plymouth to Bristol isn't a fast and regular artery I think the far south west will be forever left behind. Still too many single voyager workings too on the NE SW axis.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
In the good old days additional trains could have met the boats to transport these huge numbers of people. Sadly we no longer live in such entrepreneurial times.
Fully agree - way too many single voyager workings, combined with half the service level = a horrible travelling experience. Considering that the NE to SW timetable isn't even fully restored (with some terminating at Bristol instead of Exeter/Plymouth and the discontinuation of most Glasgow trains), where are the rest of the voyagers? Why aren't these services doubled up? Has unit availability dropped off a cliff of something?
IMHO the whole CrossCountry franchise needs to take the Avanti 221s, EMR 222s, and have a complete timetable recast from the ground up.
Fully agree - way too many single voyager workings, combined with half the service level = a horrible travelling experience. Considering that the NE to SW timetable isn't even fully restored (with some terminating at Bristol instead of Exeter/Plymouth and the discontinuation of most Glasgow trains), where are the rest of the voyagers? Why aren't these services doubled up? Has unit availability dropped off a cliff of something?
IMHO the whole CrossCountry franchise needs to take the Avanti 221s, EMR 222s, and have a complete timetable recast from the ground up.
Almost everything doubled up on Manchester to Bournemouth, hence why the longer distance routes to the south west are made to suffer. If only XC could get their hands on a HST or two to fill the gaps...oh wait...
Almost everything doubled up on Manchester to Bournemouth, hence why the longer distance routes to the south west are made to suffer. If only XC could get their hands on a HST or two to fill the gaps...oh wait...
When I did O-Level Maths, 2/2 × 2 was 2. Manchester-Bournemouth/Reading requires the same units as the old timetable. So the reason for a shortage of units to the SW isn't there.
When I did O-Level Maths, 2/2 × 2 was 2. Manchester-Bournemouth/Reading requires the same units as the old timetable. So the reason for a shortage of units to the SW isn't there.
No, the current timetable is a permanent reduction. There was a consultation on it I believe (though like all "consultations", the outcome was largely decided before it was even published!).
The 2022 timetable as consulted on is an increase over the current timetable, which is still based on the Covid timetable. The weekday timetable will need enhancing given the increase in commuting for at least part of the week, plus some missing evening services "due to Covid" need to be restored.
Almost everything doubled up on Manchester to Bournemouth, hence why the longer distance routes to the south west are made to suffer. If only XC could get their hands on a HST or two to fill the gaps...oh wait...
But the doubled-up services on the Manchester-Bournemouth route are half the frequency of the normal timetable. You can't really cut that to a single unit, otherwise the overcrowding will be horrendous.
The overcrowding was bad enough with the single-unit hourly service that ran in the normal timetable. The service needs to be hourly AND with double units (or 9-car Meridians if they can be obtained). Hoping the introduction of 8xx bi-mode stock on the MML does indeed release the Meridians for XC use. This route has been subject to severe overcrowding on the Birmingham-Oxford section for around 15 years now, so bad that I have regularly resorted to walking New St -> Moor St, getting a Chiltern to Banbury, and then changing to the XC knowing that only the Banbury-Oxford bit will be uncomfortable.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The 2022 timetable as consulted on is an increase over the current timetable, which is still based on the Covid timetable. The weekday timetable will need enhancing given the increase in commuting for at least part of the week, plus some missing evening services "due to Covid" need to be restored.
Yes, they need to ditch Covid timetables now we are supposedly "living with Covid".
If I were SWR I'd take the 2004-19 (or more specifically 2007-19, when the 2tph Weymouth began) as the baseline, and then remove a few (not all, as physical commuting is happening to some extent) peak extras - and use that for the Dec 2022 timetable.
If stock shortage is a problem, which it does appear to be admittedly, then reduce some train lengths (e.g. more 4-450s off peak to allow some 450s to cover for withdrawn 455s and/or missing 701s in the suburban area) rather than random deletions which produce uneven service intervals.
If stock shortage is a problem, which it does appear to be, then reduce some train lengths (e.g. more 4-450s off peak to allow some 450s to cover for withdrawn 455s and/or missing 701s in the suburban area) rather than random deletions which produce uneven service intervals.
Plus some of the NE-SW services are terminating short at Bristol, and 2-hourly extensions to Glasgow have been chopped, and there are less services to the extremities (Aberdeen, Penzance). And you have the NW-SE terminating at Reading every other hour. And now you even have 2 HSTs out per day on NE-SW.
Granted, there are a few extra services (4tpd in each direction Birmingham to Newcastle via Doncaster, 3tpd Manchester to Bristol, and these use around 3 single voyagers each), but this still doesn't explain why more than half the NE-SW services are single voyagers. There's also less but still a good chunk of services being single voyagers on NW-SE. Some of these single voyager services are horrendously overcrowded - I've been on one that was standing room only from Taunton to Sheffield.
Is it cost-cutting? Is it a lack of availability - has reliability fallen off a cliff? It's just strange - as 30907 said, 2/2 * 2 = 2.
Plus some of the NE-SW services are terminating short at Bristol, and 2-hourly extensions to Glasgow have been chopped, and there are less services to the extremities (Aberdeen, Penzance). And you have the NW-SE terminating at Reading every other hour. And now you even have 2 HSTs out per day on NE-SW.
Granted, there are a few extra services (4tpd in each direction Birmingham to Newcastle via Doncaster, 3tpd Manchester to Bristol, and these use around 3 single voyagers each), but this still doesn't explain why more than half the NE-SW services are single voyagers. There's also less but still a good chunk of services being single voyagers on NW-SE. Some of these single voyager services are horrendously overcrowded - I've been on one that was standing room only from Taunton to Sheffield.
Is it cost-cutting? Is it a lack of availability - has reliability fallen off a cliff? It's just strange - as 30907 said, 2/2 * 2 = 2.
I suspect some of it is down to challenges rediagramming everything as double sets with a completely different service pattern. Bear in mind that for example the two Manchester routes used to interwork.
Another factor is that two Train Managers have to be rostered if it's a double set, whereas only one is needed if it's a single set.
I suspect some of it is down to challenges rediagramming everything as double sets with a completely different service pattern. Bear in mind that for example the two Manchester routes used to interwork.
Another factor is that two Train Managers have to be rostered if it's a double set, whereas only one is needed if it's a single set.
True, and thinking about it the Manchester-Bristol and Newcastle-Reading routes were shorter as well, so not enough trains released for a full doubling-up. Problem is with the current pattern, for example many hours you have one 4-car train between Sheffield and Birmingham - which just isn't enough. With the old pattern, you'd have 2 single voyagers per hour on the core between Newcastle and Bristol, whereas now sometimes you get one single voyager between them - because trains don't split/join at Bristol or Newcastle. They can't reinstate the old timetable + get new units soon enough...
Let's hope so, even an hourly service would be welcomed on the Doncaster to Sheffield stopper at this point. There's quite a few who commute from S Yorks to York
I suspect some of it is down to challenges rediagramming everything as double sets with a completely different service pattern. Bear in mind that for example the two Manchester routes used to interwork.
Another factor is that two Train Managers have to be rostered if it's a double set, whereas only one is needed if it's a single set.
Unfortunately that doesn't necccesarily mean that they don't need to be rostered. There are many parts of the country where someone must be rostered, even if they turn out to be unavailable on the day.
Unfortunately that doesn't necccesarily mean that they don't need to be rostered. There are many parts of the country where someone must be rostered, even if they turn out to be unavailable on the day.
Bluntly, that rule needs to go. I've been in 12 car services with only the driver on the train. Yes there could be issues in the unmanned sections but its not banned for Class 321s / 322s, Class 350s, Class 357s, Class 360s, Class 365s, Class 377s, Class 379s and probably more besides.
Capacity needs to be found and Class 220s / 221s and 222s should be able to operate in pairs on the routes if needed without needing extra staff to permit their use.
Bluntly, that rule needs to go. I've been in 12 car services with only the driver on the train. Yes there could be issues in the unmanned sections but its not banned for Class 321s / 322s, Class 350s, Class 357s, Class 360s, Class 365s, Class 377s, Class 379s and probably more besides.
Capacity needs to be found and Class 220s / 221s and 222s should be able to operate in pairs on the routes if needed without needing extra staff to permit their use.
Unfortunately that doesn't necccesarily mean that they don't need to be rostered. There are many parts of the country where someone must be rostered, even if they turn out to be unavailable on the day.
Change is likely to be forthcoming for the Elizabeth Line in December, if not before. The present situation is that passengers from Shenfield have to change at Liverpool Street to get to Paddington and anyone who might wish to travel from one side of the route to the other has to change at Paddington. GWR's website tells us that the lines from Reading, Heathrow and Shenfield will connect with the central tunnels allowing through travel from Reading / Heathrow to Abbey Wood without the change at Paddington and from Shenfield to Paddington without the change at Liverpool Street.
Things are planned to improve again in May 2023 when the separate sections will become fully connected.
They all take between 2 hours and 2 hours 25 minutes for a journey of 125 miles. All run with intercity style rolling stock and are competitive with a car which at this moment in time google maps says will take 2 hours 20 minutes. Looking back over the years 2 hours 15 minutes seems a very average time for Plymouth to Bristol services which the current mix of slightly faster than that and slightly slower than that services still offer. I can’t find any all stations services between Plymouth and Bristol.
Out of interest how does the speed of one of those mini-Class 43s compare with the 125mph max speed of an 800/802? I am sure I heard somewhere that the 43s were likely to be phased out between Penzance and Cardiff in favour of 5-car 800s but I might be wrong.
Change is likely to be forthcoming for the Elizabeth Line in December, if not before. The present situation is that passengers from Shenfield have to change at Liverpool Street to get to Paddington and anyone who might wish to travel from one side of the route to the other has to change at Paddington. GWR's website tells us that the lines from Reading, Heathrow and Shenfield will connect with the central tunnels allowing through travel from Reading / Heathrow to Abbey Wood without the change at Paddington and from Shenfield to Paddington without the change at Liverpool Street.
Things are planned to improve again in May 2023 when the separate sections will become fully connected.
Out of interest how does the speed of one of those mini-Class 43s compare with the 125mph max speed of an 800/802? I am sure I heard somewhere that the 43s were likely to be phased out between Penzance and Cardiff in favour of 5-car 800s but I might be wrong.
The western end of the Elizabeth line is planned to join up with the central operating section before December. The Shenfield end will be joined up in Spring 2023.
The western end of the Elizabeth line is planned to join up with the central operating section before December. The Shenfield end will be joined up in Spring 2023.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
