December 2020 Timetable Change

[800001]

Does anyone have any gen on if the new northern service will start running from york to scarborugh? It was due to start in may but obviusley didnt!
Cheers!

Highly unlikely, they stopped route learning for it many months ago

 

[splashoutradio]

I've never seen http://www.railwaydata.co.uk before - how is the information it displays generated? Looking at http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/Dec20/timetable.php?table=229 and comparing it to the data in RealTimeTrains, whenever two trains arrive into Cambridge in service and join to from one train to London, it's missing one of the two trains north of Cambridge, e.g. in the weekday morning peak the Ely to King's Cross departures at 0646, 0711, 0740, 0840, and 0941 are all missing (some of those started from King's Lynn, some at Ely).

Data for the tables is obtained through Network Rails open data service and compiled using 'home-made' software. Details of the stations and which trains to include are created on a table by table basis using maps, other timetables and the invaluable help of local rail users. The issue with table 229 was due to a filtering issue, but this has now been corrected. The dates of operation for this table have also been changed (13 December 2020 - 28 February 2021), to help make it look a bit clearer. Thanks for the heads-up, @arb

The data is very raw and has a few glitches. Stansted Mountfitchet was closed the last time I looked. Some tables are excellent, although many would look clearer if they ran from 02.00 to 01.59. In the days when the National Rail Timetable commanded some respect some TOCs used to do a lot of manual editing to make the data more presentable.

I wasn't aware Stansted Mountfitchet had closed - just had a quick look on the departure boards and there are still listings of arrivals and departures.
I had contemplated the tables running from 02:00 - 01:59, but opted to try and stay close to current publications - will look into the 02:00 day though

 

[306024]

Data for the tables is obtained through Network Rails open data service and compiled using 'home-made' software. Details of the stations and which trains to include are created on a table by table basis using maps, other timetables and the invaluable help of local rail users. The issue with table 229 was due to a filtering issue, but this has now been corrected. The dates of operation for this table have also been changed (13 December 2020 - 28 February 2021), to help make it look a bit clearer. Thanks for the heads-up, @arb

I wasn't aware Stansted Mountfitchet had closed - just had a quick look on the departure boards and there are still listings of arrivals and departures.
I had contemplated the tables running from 02:00 - 01:59, but opted to try and stay close to current publications - will look into the 02:00 day though

Don‘t panic! Stansted Mountfitchet is closed only in so far as table 246 shows no trains calling there. It is very much open otherwise.

Yes there was a lot of disappointment when the NRT board (as it then was) introduced trains that started the previous day at the start of the tables. All those p times looked confusing, worse when they were dated trains, and lead to a lot of MO and MSX columns. If you grouped all the MO trains together, then the MSX ones, it became slightly better, but required a lot of editing.

The other side if the coin is you need a clear way of showing a 00.01 departure in a Saturday table for example is in fact in the early hours of Sunday morning.

Recreating the NRT (but with headcodes) using ‘home made’ software is a challenge and a half, congratulations on what you’ve achieved so far.

 

[arb]

Data for the tables is obtained through Network Rails open data service and compiled using 'home-made' software. Details of the stations and which trains to include are created on a table by table basis using maps, other timetables and the invaluable help of local rail users. The issue with table 229 was due to a filtering issue, but this has now been corrected. The dates of operation for this table have also been changed (13 December 2020 - 28 February 2021), to help make it look a bit clearer. Thanks for the heads-up, @arb

Wow, not only does it look cool, but it gets instant updates from feedback! Can I suggest that timetable 225 (Peterborough - Ely - Cambridge - Stansted) could benefit from a similar temporary reduction in the dates that it covers?

But I am now puzzled as to why the Great Northern timetable is seemingly changing in March next year. (Or is just incomplete in the data feeds from March, which seems a bit odd in itself? Incomplete for the entire timetable period I could understand, but only half of it?)

 

[717001]

But I am now puzzled as to why the Great Northern timetable is seemingly changing in March next year. (Or is just incomplete in the data feeds from March, which seems a bit odd in itself? Incomplete for the entire timetable period I could understand, but only half of it?)

The main Kings Cross engineering closures kick in at 1 March - see https://eastcoastupgrade.co.uk/the-programme/ for full details as the planning progresses and more info is published - currently says:

Monday 1 March through to Friday 4 June 2021

A temporary, dedicated timetable will operate at King’s Cross station to support the relaying of the redesigned track layout with reduced services operating. At peak times such as between 8-9AM on weekdays, ten trains per hour will arrive at King’s Cross, two fewer than operate today, with a reduced impact at less busy times when fewer trains usually operate

 

[MikeWM]

There are 8 cars in the plan from the start, and as far as I am aware it is still on for December, the biggest risk was the new 8-car stabling siding at Kings Lynn.

Good to hear, thanks.

With the update to this table, the remaining services skipping stops at Waterbeach southbound make a lot more sense (as they have an Ely starter stopping there immediately before or after) and everything now appears to be calling at Littleport.

 

[splashoutradio]

Don‘t panic! Stansted Mountfitchet is closed only in so far as table 246 shows no trains calling there. It is very much open otherwise.

Ah yes, you're correct! There was an old TIPLOC code hiding in there, but this has now been corrected. Thanks for the heads up

Yes there was a lot of disappointment when the NRT board (as it then was) introduced trains that started the previous day at the start of the tables. All those p times looked confusing, worse when they were dated trains, and lead to a lot of MO and MSX columns. If you grouped all the MO trains together, then the MSX ones, it became slightly better, but required a lot of editing.

I'd agree, all the X's and O's make the tables look messy and can be confusing, which was why the previous day timings were made grey, but think I'll have to have a think about the best way to display these trains

Can I suggest that timetable 225 (Peterborough - Ely - Cambridge - Stansted) could benefit from a similar temporary reduction in the dates that it covers?

Excellent idea! This has now been implemented.

 

[Watershed]

I have information to suggest (unsurprisingly) TPE will be running predominantly the same service as now from December onwards, with availability of socially distanced reservations and thus Advances once again.

A couple of minor changes, the biggest being that York to Scarborough will become an hourly shuttle (save for a set swap). Airport to Newcastle trains will continue to be diverted to Liverpool, however now calling at both Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows following a longer Victoria dwell. Huddersfield stoppers will only run Mon-Sat daytime (with Hull services picking up the stops the rest of the time) and will be reduced to single units. WTT will of course continue to show an uplifted quasi-pre-Covid service until suppressed accordingly.

 

[Fokx]

I have information to suggest (unsurprisingly) TPE will be running predominantly the same service as now from December onwards, with availability of socially distanced reservations and thus Advances once again.

A couple of minor changes, the biggest being that York to Scarborough will become an hourly shuttle (save for a set swap). Airport to Newcastle trains will continue to be diverted to Liverpool, however now calling at both Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows following a longer Victoria dwell. Huddersfield stoppers will only run Mon-Sat daytime (with Hull services picking up the stops the rest of the time) and will be reduced to single units. WTT will of course continue to show an uplifted quasi-pre-Covid service until suppressed accordingly.

Just to clarify the Hull services are only picking up the stations between and inclusive of Stalybridge to Slaithwaite (Manchester to Hudds stopper) and the Leeds stopper will run Mon-Sun

 

[Watershed]

Apologies, rereading it I can see I wasn't entirely clear there! Yes, only the Manchester-Huddersfield side of things will see any change. Huddersfield-Leeds remains as-was.

 

[_toommm_]

I have information to suggest (unsurprisingly) TPE will be running predominantly the same service as now from December onwards, with availability of socially distanced reservations and thus Advances once again.

A couple of minor changes, the biggest being that York to Scarborough will become an hourly shuttle (save for a set swap). Airport to Newcastle trains will continue to be diverted to Liverpool, however now calling at both Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows following a longer Victoria dwell. Huddersfield stoppers will only run Mon-Sat daytime (with Hull services picking up the stops the rest of the time) and will be reduced to single units. WTT will of course continue to show an uplifted quasi-pre-Covid service until suppressed accordingly.

They’ve never stopped releasing advances. I travel on them for work and I’ve been able to buy them all the time.

 

[Anvil1984]

Not sure if anyone’s reported it (and apologies if they have) but Northern have started to add December to May PDFs to their website

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure if anyone’s reported it (and apologies if they have) but Northern have started to add December to May PDFs to their website

Thanks for the heads up.

Shockingly there's still no 10:19 departure from Leeds towards Lancaster. Very poor IMO.

 

[Peter0124]

Twitter

Confirmed that Avanti are reducing, but from Saturday 14th November

From 14 November, we will be reducing our services on the Manchester and Birmingham routes from three to two trains per hour. Anyone impacted by these changes, who has booked directly with us, will be contacted via email.

 

[matt]

Looks from New Street the XX:50 departures to Euston have been dropped with the XX:30 additionally calling at Rugby.

 

[swissrailpassion]

There's a lot of nearly empty trains running at the moment. November would be a good opportunity to save money, cut services and mothball lines until December.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's a lot of nearly empty trains running at the moment. November would be a good opportunity to save money, cut services and mothball lines until December.

Unfortunately, it is not at all easy to do that, and it doesn’t save money.

 

[ComUtoR]

There's a lot of nearly empty trains running at the moment.

Kinda the point really :/

Running longer trains and keeping a service level to spread the passenger load helps increase social distancing.

 

[js1000]

There's a lot of nearly empty trains running at the moment. November would be a good opportunity to save money, cut services and mothball lines until December.

I feel there are no easy answers. The problem on the railways is everything is "baked in" years in advance - particularly access rights and unit leases. The government have clearly just thought "grin and bear it" for now and are willing to subsidise the system for a year or two.

Even if they did want to make savings, it wouldn't be particularly enormous as you're only really saving on salaries and a little on overheads in reducing maintenance for trains that are mothballed. And just as with aircraft in dry or wet storage there are to still checks that have to be made even if they are not in everyday use.

The real saving would be shutting whole branch lines as this reducing the need for Network Rail maintenance costs, as well as TOCs operating costs. However this is unlikely as successive governments have been scarred by Beeching. Setting them up again is not as easy as shutting them down.

 

[Philip]

Which of the Manchester-London trains is being dropped?

 

[matt]

Which of the Manchester-London trains is being dropped?

Realtime Trains - Departures from Manchester Piccadilly

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Those are the Avanti departures

 

[Watershed]

Which of the Manchester-London trains is being dropped?

Southbound it's the xx35 (with the xx15 retimed to xx13 to pick up the Macclesfield stop). In this direction, it's probably the "least worst" one to drop - this way the 2 fast trains an hour between Stoke/Macclesfield and Manchester are 14 minutes apart as opposed to the 8 minutes apart they'd otherwise be.

Northbound they've dropped the xx00 (with the xx20 picking up the Macclesfield stop). Ideally you'd drop the xx20 instead, because what they've done leaves SOT/MAC-MAN with 2 fast trains per hour leaving 4 minutes apart. A massive decrease from the usual 4tph service, though the interplay of half hourly XC services and 20/40 split West Coast services has never been great on this line. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if XC hadn't canned half their Brum-MAN services.

Unfortunately the paths are fixed on the southern end, so that tail rather wags the dog...

 

[Philip]

Thanks!

 

[Ianno87]

Realtime Trains - Departures from Manchester Piccadilly

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Those are the Avanti departures

Basically the xx35 Manchester-Euston is dropped, with the Macclesfield call being made in the xx15 instead.

From Euston, this means the xx00 departure is dropped, with the xx20 calling addotionally at Macclesfield.

Makes sense, as the xx00 from Euston forms the xx35 back, so is "captive" in that sense.

 

[Watershed]

Makes sense, as the xx00 from Euston forms the xx35 back, so is "captive" in that sense.

If the paths were available I'm sure that a solution could be found for rejigging the unit diagrams. The biggest saving in all this is crew (and particularly driver) diagrams and unit mileage, and to a marginal extent track wear.

 

[Ianno87]

If the paths were available I'm sure that a solution could be found for rejigging the unit diagrams. The biggest saving in all this is crew (and particularly driver) diagrams and unit mileage, and to a marginal extent track wear.

The full 3tph has 3 x 25 minute turnround times at Piccadilly, which is replace by 2 x 25 minute turnrounds by simply dropping one.

If, say, the xx20 Euston / xx15 Piccadilly were dropped instead (the MK stoppers), you'd end up with:
-1 x 45 minute turnround (xx00 out, xx55 back)
-1 x 45 minute turnround (xx40 out, xx35 back

So less efficient with units and crews. Basically because the via Crewe and via MK/Stoke cross-form each other at Piccadilly, so dropping the 'other' service is easiesr.

 

[Watershed]

The full 3tph has 3 x 25 minute turnround times at Piccadilly, which is replace by 2 x 25 minute turnrounds by simply dropping one.

If, say, the xx20 Euston / xx15 Piccadilly were dropped instead (the MK stoppers), you'd end up with:
-1 x 45 minute turnround (xx00 out, xx55 back)
-1 x 45 minute turnround (xx40 out, xx35 back

So less efficient with units and crews. Basically because the via Crewe and via MK/Stoke cross-form each other at Piccadilly, so dropping the 'other' service is easiesr.

There isn't an issue on unit availability (especially given fewer total miles run) so having slack unit diagrams isn't problematic. Having longer turnarounds can be more efficient for crews as, depending on crew type and terms, it can be enough for a break to be put in.

Anyway, it is what it is, the paths dictate how the service can be reduced.

 

[Ianno87]

There isn't an issue on unit availability (especially given fewer total miles run) so having slack unit diagrams isn't problematic. Having longer turnarounds can be more efficient for crews as, depending on crew type and terms, it can be enough for a break to be put in.

Anyway, it is what it is, the paths dictate how the service can be reduced.

But there must be an efficiency (albeit a small one) in preparing one or two fewer units for service each day.

Also possible that the way it's done makes balancing units between start/end of each day - e.g. having trains cycle through each depot to meet maintenance needs.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Avanti might revert to 3 per hour London-Manchester by the 14th of December anyway if things ease on the 3rd.

 

[The Planner]

Avanti might revert to 3 per hour London-Manchester by the 14th of December anyway if things ease on the 3rd.

Doubt it.