December 2017 Timetable

[Philip]

After the 15:15 departure from Manchester to Glasgow, all of the Scotland services up to and including the 18:15 are booked to run via Chat Moss; with all, barring the 17:15 departure, also calling at Wigan. Is this the long term plan and if so is it likely that the Northern Connect to Cumbria will run via Bolton during these hours to compensate for diverted Scottish services?

 

[absolutelymilk]

After the 15:15 departure from Manchester to Glasgow, all of the Scotland services up to and including the 18:15 are booked to run via Chat Moss; with all, barring the 17:15 departure, also calling at Wigan. Is this the long term plan and if so is it likely that the Northern Connect to Cumbria will run via Bolton during these hours to compensate for diverted Scottish services?

I'm not sure what you mean here - the Manchester-Scotland services already go via Chat Moss don't they?

 

[Philip]

I'm not sure what you mean here - the Manchester-Scotland services already go via Chat Moss don't they?

I mean from when they go back to running via Bolton, from next February apparently. Having one service out of the hourly pattern not calling at Bolton is one thing, but to have three in a row not calling there seems quite a lot unless as I say it is compensated for by the Northern Connect picking up the call instead.

 

[northwichcat]

I mean from when they go back to running via Bolton, from next February apparently. Having one service out of the hourly pattern not calling at Bolton is one thing, but to have three in a row not calling there seems quite a lot unless as I say it is compensated for by the Northern Connect picking up the call instead.

If the Northern Connect services don't start until May 2017 then Wigan passengers will still need the 16:15 and 18:15 departures, while the 17:15 will be too full to pick up either Bolton or Wigan passengers. Bolton isn't losing services it's gaining services, while Wigan will be temporarily losing services.

 

[Philip]

If the Northern Connect services don't start until May 2017 then Wigan passengers will still need the 16:15 and 18:15 departures, while the 17:15 will be too full to pick up either Bolton or Wigan passengers. Bolton isn't losing services it's gaining services, while Wigan will be temporarily losing services.

Regaining services to be more correct. The initial idea of moving these services away from Bolton has failed, since by adding the Wigan call to the Chat Moss route they have simply replaced local Bolton passengers clogging up the trains with local Wigan passengers clogging up the trains. Should have electrified the Bolton and Chorley lines first and kept things as they were.

 

[northwichcat]

Regaining services to be more correct. The initial idea of moving these services away from Bolton has failed, since by adding the Wigan call to the Chat Moss route they have simply replaced local Bolton passengers clogging up the trains with local Wigan passengers clogging up the trains. Should have electrified the Bolton and Chorley lines first and kept things as they were.

The re-routing via Wigan was a case of routing a service to suit the infrastructure rather than routing a service to suit the demand.

However, it should be remembered Manchester-Bolton-Scotland was not hourly and that Bolton got an additional hourly local service to both Manchester and Preston as compensation for losing the TPE services, so if Bolton gets an hourly Scottish service then they will be gaining services over what they had before they lost TPE services. Hence why I say gaining services. Although, I accept they will be regaining direct links to Scotland.

 

[cle]

Will anything fast run Manchester-Wigan-Preston over the new wires, if TPE Scotland reverts to Bolton?

Isn't the Wigan route quicker? Surely most Bolton demand is shorter distance and could be covered by a supporting Lancaster or Blackpool services (once wired) ?

 

[northwichcat]

Will anything fast run Manchester-Wigan-Preston over the new wires, if TPE Scotland reverts to Bolton?

Manchester Airport to Barrow and Windermere.

 

[driver9000]

Will anything fast run Manchester-Wigan-Preston over the new wires, if TPE Scotland reverts to Bolton?

Isn't the Wigan route quicker? Surely most Bolton demand is shorter distance and could be covered by a supporting Lancaster or Blackpool services (once wired) ?

They're about the same time wise but Bolton is shorter. Increasing the speed makes it the quicker route.

 

[158756]

However, it should be remembered Manchester-Bolton-Scotland was not hourly and that Bolton got an additional hourly local service to both Manchester and Preston as compensation for losing the TPE services, so if Bolton gets an hourly Scottish service then they will be gaining services over what they had before they lost TPE services. Hence why I say gaining services. Although, I accept they will be regaining direct links to Scotland.

I thought it was pretty much hourly by the time it moved to Wigan, and what local service did Bolton gain in compensation? There are 3 tph between Preston and Manchester via Bolton, the Blackpool stopper, Blackpool ex TPE and Preston/Blackpool - Hazel Grove, all of which have been running since before Chat Moss electrification. And if Scottish services weren't quite hourly before that'll be cancelled out by the peak time services skipping Bolton. I think it's basically regaining the same service as before.

 

[darloscott]

Is it not more likely that the peak demand on the Bolton corridor can be solved by throwing a few 319/323s down there to give a sort of metro-like service

 

[158756]

Is it not more likely that the peak demand on the Bolton corridor can be solved by throwing a few 319/323s down there to give a sort of metro-like service

319s will operate the stopping services to Preston and Blackpool eventually, and there's talk of the diesel conversions working the Wigan services. 331s are I think the plan for the Blackpool semi fast, Blackburn will be sprinters for the foreseeable future, many probably 2 car, off peak at least. There's no point stuffing more services down the line when it already has 7tph with plenty of room for lengthening if necessary.

 

[Ianno87]

The re-routing via Wigan was a case of routing a service to suit the infrastructure rather than routing a service to suit the demand.

However, it should be remembered Manchester-Bolton-Scotland was not hourly and that Bolton got an additional hourly local service to both Manchester and Preston as compensation for losing the TPE services, so if Bolton gets an hourly Scottish service then they will be gaining services over what they had before they lost TPE services. Hence why I say gaining services. Although, I accept they will be regaining direct links to Scotland.

No Bolton didn't.

Manchester-Bolton-Preston went from 3.5tph to 4tph in December 2008.

The Scotland services being rerouted via Chat Moss from Dec 2013 dropped the via Bolton frequency to 3tph. The only replacement service for Bolton passengers was an extra peak hour Oxford Rd starter/terminator.

Bolton will otherwise be reverting back to its Dec 2008 frequency.

 

[Class 170101]

Should have electrified the Bolton and Chorley lines first and kept things as they were.

The route to Golborne was the shorter distance to electrify (Golborne to Preston via WCML already being wired) and is definitely the corect route to have been wired first. Liverpool to Manchester services being diverted via Warrington during the overnight wiring.

 

[Liam]

Any indication of the new ScotRail timetable following electrification of Glas - Edin. Surely units freed up to increase some frequency in diesel routes aswell as the ‘training’ 380s returning for passenger use

There are a few extra Dumfries-Carlisle services that I can see.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought it was pretty much hourly by the time it moved to Wigan, and what local service did Bolton gain in compensation?

It was 4 hourly to Glasgow and 4 hourly to Edinburgh initially. I think Edinburgh finished up being roughly 2 trains every 4 hours due to TPE adding additional services via portion working with Blackpool and Barrow services, while Glasgow remained as every 4 hours. Certainly wasn't hourly and there were certainly quite a few portion workings.

There are 3 tph between Preston and Manchester via Bolton, the Blackpool stopper, Blackpool ex TPE and Preston/Blackpool - Hazel Grove, all of which have been running since before Chat Moss electrification. And if Scottish services weren't quite hourly before that'll be cancelled out by the peak time services skipping Bolton. I think it's basically regaining the same service as before.

The Blackpool-Victoria stopper was an additional train introduced in 2008 (as replacement for losing the 2 hourly Virgin service.) I'm not saying it's right Bolton had services removed once Chat Moss was electrified but I am saying that once all the enhancements are complete that Bolton will have more services than it had in 2007 (before all the changes), it's not simply a case of reinstating services which Bolton lost as Philip suggested.

 

[northwichcat]

No Bolton didn't.

Manchester-Bolton-Preston went from 3.5tph to 4tph in December 2008.

You've contradicted yourself. If Bolton didn't get additional services then Bolton couldn't have gone from 3.5tph to 4tph.

 

[scrapy]

Timeline.

Pre Dec 2008 Manchester to Bolton had 3tph (1*Buxton to Blackpool Nth, 1*Man Airport to Blackpool Nth, 1*Man Airport to Barrow (2 hourly)/ Windermere(4 per day portion worked with Barrow)/Glasgow(4 hourly)/Edinburgh(4 hourly).)

The Manchester to Bolton to Preston corridor had 4tph once the timetable changed in Dec 2008. (1*Manchester Vic to Blackpool Nth, 1*Hazel Grove to Preston, 1*Man Airport to Blackpool North , 1*Man Airport to (Glasgow/Edinburgh) a few services to Barrow and Windermere remained but generally portion worked with other services. Other services cut back to Preston, Lancaster or Oxenholme)

Chat Moss Electrification announced in June 2009.

Manchester Airport to Scotland/Barrow routed via Wigan NW in 2013 (all services by Dec timetable change except portion worked Barrow with Blackpool). Manchester to Bolton to Preston down to 3tph.

May 2018 timetable change. Back to 4 tph. (1*Man Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh, 1*Man Airport to Blackpool North, 1*Macclesfield/Stoke to Blackpool North and 1*Man Vic to Preston)

In May 2018 Bolton to Manchester will lose 1tph on the Wigan corridor and gain 1tph on the Blackburn corridor. Despite the Scotland to Man Airport services returning Bolton to Manchester Airport will remain 2 hourly due to the loss of Southport to Man Airport services. Bolton to Man Airport will drop to hourly in the peaks.

 

[tbtc]

Timeline.

Pre Dec 2008 Manchester to Bolton had 3tph (1*Buxton to Blackpool Nth, 1*Man Airport to Blackpool Nth, 1*Man Airport to Barrow (2 hourly)/ Windermere(4 per day portion worked with Barrow)/Glasgow(4 hourly)/Edinburgh(4 hourly).)

My memory was that FNW operated an hourly Manchester (Airport?) to Lancaster service, extending alternately to Barrow or Windermere. This became a TPE service, running hourly from Manchester Airport to Lancaster. Whilst I remember *some* portion working, the Windermere service was generally bi-hourly (what portions happened often included a Blackpool portion for a Manchester - Cumbria service).

This was a different path to the one used for the bi-hourly (VT2?) Cross Country service from Birmingham via Stoke/ Manchester/ Bolton/ Preston/ Carlisle etc to Scotland (with picking up/ setting down restrictions at Bolton).

It then became a bi-hourly service from Manchester Piccadilly to Scotland (sitting in the Mayfield siding, like the current Llandudno service does IIRC).

This was the service that TPE took over, and replaced some of the direct Windermere services with Scottish services. The Northern service was therefore beefed up, with the hourly Buxton - Blackpool service becoming two overlapping hourly services (Buxton to Preston, Hazel Grove to Blackpool << 180s taking over some duties on the latter).

 

[northwichcat]

This was the service that TPE took over, and replaced some of the direct Windermere services with Scottish services. The Northern service was therefore beefed up, with the hourly Buxton - Blackpool service becoming two overlapping hourly services (Buxton to Preston, Hazel Grove to Blackpool << 180s taking over some duties on the latter).

Yes initially the TPE Scottish service was a diversion of the Windermere service. However, while I accept they made some further enhancements there was no way they could have run a service every hour using 185s without service cuts (not just capacity cuts) on North/South TPE. However, I seem to recall there were northbound services to Scotland from Manchester Airport at 16:00, 17:00 and 18:00 with 2 of them having Barrow portions attached. Maybe someone people presume what happened at peak times happened all day?

Slight correction - Buxton to Blackpool was replaced by Hazel Grove to Preston and Manchester Victoria to Blackpool. However, some peak time Hazel Grove to Preston services did still serve Buxton. Recently the Hazel Grove service got a 'temporary' extension to Blackpool to allow for the Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool service to be cut back to Preston to allow 319s to be used.

 

[Philip]

The whole timetable changed in December 2008 and this meant the Cumbria/Scotland services leaving the Airport at xx:00 each hour, having previously (and for some years) left the Airport at xx:27. Salford Crescent and Deansgate were also dropped from the stopping pattern of the Cumbria and Scotland services. December 2008 saw a couple more Scotland services replacing ex-Cumbria services and gradually this increased so that by 2012-13 Manchester-Scotland was almost an hourly service, with around 5-6 portion trains conveying carriages to Barrow or Windermere. Between 06:00-18:00, I seem to remember there were only two Manchester-Lancaster services which didn't continue to Scotland.

 

[DelW]

On the contrary, I would be very pleased if the XC path is taken up by GWR to provide NDL users with earlier direct connections to Heathrow, Paddington, Oxford, Bristol TM, Birmingham NS, Derby, Sheffield, York and Newcastle.

No real need for the Guildford XC service really. Sooner have more and more along the North Downs, and move towards 4tph in future - with a fast regional one which could possibly extend to Oxford and beyond (E/W) now the diveunders at Reading are all sorted...

Does the early morning XC actually take up what would otherwise be a GWR path? AIUI the main capacity restraints which are currently delaying or preventing the introduction of 3tph on the North Downs are east of Guildford, the most awkward being the level crossings at Betchworth and (particularly) Reigate.

I've never been clear why the evening Guildford XC doesn't continue in passenger service to Havant on its way to Eastleigh for stabling (and similarly back in the morning). Does the TM/guard disembark and travel passenger back to Reading? Or is it do do with fare abstraction from SWR or similar?

 

[swt_passenger]

I've never been clear why the evening Guildford XC doesn't continue in passenger service to Havant on its way to Eastleigh for stabling (and similarly back in the morning). Does the TM/guard disembark and travel passenger back to Reading? Or is it do do with fare abstraction from SWR or similar?

I think its the train crew issue as you mention, they have been explained as being Reading based in the past. But running the southbound service at a sociable hour is fairly recent, it used to run much later in the evening Mon - Sat. Probably little demand for extra capacity at that time of night. All a bit academic if it is about to be pulled from the timetable though.

 

[Scotrail88]

With the wires supposedly on between Glasgow and Edinburgh, has any indication of timetable changes appeared? Can’t see anything for this or any ScotRail route in opentraintimes

 

[InOban]

I would be surprised if there's any change until May 18. And until phase 2 (Stirling etc) is complete, it won't be possible to accelerate trains.

 

[Bovverboy]

I see the 319 operated Northern routes now have "timings for 319 EMU at 100mph" in the technical details rather than still having "Pacer / Class 150/153/155/156 DMU at 75 mph" descriptions. However when I compare the actual journey times, they seem to be slower than currently. (Only a minute here and a minute there).

Are these the final timings of these services, or will they be 'improved' again at the April timetable change / when the Liverpool Lime Street upgrade is complete.

Journeys on the Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria stopping service (to Manchester Airport on Sundays) are being accelerated by up to four minutes.

The 319s seem to struggle with the current diesel times, so I'm not confident that they'll be able to manage the new schedule.

 

[158756]

Journeys on the Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria stopping service (to Manchester Airport on Sundays) are being accelerated by up to four minutes.

The 319s seem to struggle with the current diesel times, so I'm not confident that they'll be able to manage the new schedule.

Looking at services between 12-1pm, it looks like 4 minutes off the Manchester/Wigan/Warrington stoppers and 3 minutes off the Preston and Manchester semi fasts.

There are no extra allowances for Lime Street. This is the entire benefit of electrification.

Judging by RTT I reckon the 319s can definitely take 1 or 2 minutes off the journey time. Not convinced by 4 unless the drivers are going deliberately slowly knowing they'll have to wait time anyway.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Looking at services between 12-1pm, it looks like 4 minutes off the Manchester/Wigan/Warrington stoppers and 3 minutes off the Preston and Manchester semi fasts.

There are no extra allowances for Lime Street. This is the entire benefit of electrification.

Judging by RTT I reckon the 319s can definitely take 1 or 2 minutes off the journey time. Not convinced by 4 unless the drivers are going deliberately slowly knowing they'll have to wait time anyway.

Please could you elaborate on this statement? It has me a little puzzled.

 

[158756]

Please could you elaborate on this statement? It has me a little puzzled.

In response to a combination of an earlier post wondering if further improvements might be due later, and many forum debates about electrification, that four minutes off an hour's journey time is it as far as the improvements from the hundreds of millions spent on electrification go. There won't be any further decreases from Lime Street remodelling and the longer trains did not require electrification.

 

[Loop & Link]

Journeys on the Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria stopping service (to Manchester Airport on Sundays) are being accelerated by up to four minutes.

The 319s seem to struggle with the current diesel times, so I'm not confident that they'll be able to manage the new schedule.

Really?! I find most of the time they are waiting time at stations, noticed that they can lose time on Wigan-Liverpool sometimes but this is mainly below threshold/passenger loading delay.

I've noticed a service leave Man Vic up to 10 late and get to Lime Street on time and achieve PPM.

The services will be speeded up properly from next year, having seen the draft timetable.