December 2015 Timetable Change

[physics34]

trying to find a link to the thrEad but there are plenty of changes on SOuthern/Gatwick Express/Thameslink services from december....

Brighton Expresses withdrawn
2tph Gatwick Expresses extended to Brighton all day
London Bridge to Reigate/Tonbridge services starting from Victoria and run fast from East Croydon to Redhill
Bedford to Gatwick Airport/Three Bridges stopping service (Thameslink) additionally calling at Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham.
Milton Keynes to SOuth Croydon services TERMINATE at East Croydon.
Purley to Tattenham off-peak shuttles WITHDRAWN

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Milton Keynes to South Croydon services TERMINATE at East Croydon.

I am wondering what is the logic behind this given that the extension to South Croydon in the first place was to reduce pressure at East Croydon by avoiding having them be turned back at East Croydon?

 

[physics34]

I am wondering what is the logic behind this given that the extension to South Croydon in the first place was to reduce pressure at East Croydon by avoiding having them be turned back at East Croydon?

yeh, believe so.

The train is so frequently 3 or more mins late into east croydon that they terminate there often anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

yeh, believe so.

The train is so frequently 3 or more mins late into east croydon that they terminate there often anyway.

It's explained in the consultation, which was linked on the previous page, post #25:

As a result of a number of timing changes to other trains through East Croydon, it is proposed that off peak Milton Keynes to South Croydon trains will only run between Milton Keynes and East Croydon no longer serving South Croydon. These trains are little used on this section of route. Passengers travelling to and from South Croydon will be required to change trains at East Croydon. For passengers travelling between South Croydon and Clapham Junction, direct trains will still be provided every 30 minutes during the day. Peak trains operating between Purley and the West London Line will continue to operate as today.

 

[physics34]

It's explained in the consultation, which was linked on the previous page, post #25:

strange that they didnt realise that would be lightly used in the first place. South Croydon is very much a commuter station... very busy in the peak, very quiet off peak.

 

[snail]

Is there any timetable changes to scotrail, particularly from the central belt to the inverness/Aberdeen areas?

At the risk of sounding rude, why don't you take a look for yourself and report back?

 

[swt_passenger]

strange that they didnt realise that would be lightly used in the first place. South Croydon is very much a commuter station... very busy in the peak, very quiet off peak.

As was explained at the time, they were extended to South Croydon in the off-peak solely to get them out of the platform at East Croydon, where they were in the way for about 15 mins, it wasn't really done to provide a passenger service. It therefore seems reasonable that having re-written the timetable for Dec 2018, that problem has now gone away, with the time between arrival and departure reduced to 9 mins.

 

[physics34]

As was explained at the time, they were extended to South Croydon in the off-peak solely to get them out of the platform at East Croydon, where they were in the way for about 15 mins, it wasn't really done to provide a passenger service. It therefore seems reasonable that having re-written the timetable for Dec 2018, that problem has now gone away, with the time between arrival and departure reduced to 9 mins.

at least the drivers who have just come all the way from milton keynes have a chance of a wee, a cuppa or a bit of a break!!! This was the issue with the trains going to south croydon. Very tight on times, which makes these services not very well liked by staff.

FRom experience i dont think anything else has ever come into platform 5 at EC after me while ive left for south croydon and come back!

 

[Class 170101]

Is there any timetable changes to scotrail, particularly from the central belt to the inverness/Aberdeen areas?

At the risk of sounding rude, why don't you take a look for yourself and report back?

I had a look previously and there was nothing obvious at this time.

 

[MK Tom]

Having looked and not found anything obvious, can I ask if anyone knows of any changes to WCML south services? Aside from the above mentioned MK-Croydon change.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Originally Posted by swt_passenger
As was explained at the time, they were extended to South Croydon in the off-peak solely to get them out of the platform at East Croydon, where they were in the way for about 15 mins, it wasn't really done to provide a passenger service. It therefore seems reasonable that having re-written the timetable for Dec 2018, that problem has now gone away, with the time between arrival and departure reduced to 9 mins.

at least the drivers who have just come all the way from Milton Keynes have a chance of a wee, a cuppa or a bit of a break!!! This was the issue with the trains going to South Croydon. Very tight on times, which makes these services not very well liked by staff.

From experience I don't think anything else has ever come into platform 5 at EC after me while I've left for South Croydon and come back!

Now that makes sense, a shorter turnaround time would certainly make it more practical to turn back at East Croydon as well as providing the short break benefot for the driver as well.

 

[Starmill]

No step free access to part of the station at Ayr is actually a real disappointment. I'm surprised Transport Scotland haven't acted on that already given its relative importance. Is there no work planned?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Anything about XC services? I keep hoping that they abolish that worthless Guildford to Newcastle service, which has all the reliability of a Trabant.

They should either put another couple of them in or clear off out.

 

[Starmill]

Some changes in the Reading area I think.

 

[tsr]

at least the drivers who have just come all the way from milton keynes have a chance of a wee, a cuppa or a bit of a break!!! This was the issue with the trains going to south croydon. Very tight on times, which makes these services not very well liked by staff.

FRom experience i dont think anything else has ever come into platform 5 at EC after me while ive left for south croydon and come back!

It's also good for many other people. One of the only possible uses of those services running from South Croydon appears to be for short hops for local schoolchildren, who have been known to promptly trash swathes of the trains on more than one occasion. This means the trains remain grubby until picking up a travelling cleaner at some point on the WLL. This change will mean that the trains are a bit cleaner on weekdays for many passengers boarding further North.

Anything about XC services? I keep hoping that they abolish that worthless Guildford to Newcastle service, which has all the reliability of a Trabant.

They should either put another couple of them in or clear off out.

It would be nice if they added a couple of services to connect with the first weekday arrivals in Guildford from Redhill/Reigate/Dorking, or just retimed the current option by a couple of minutes in order to do this. This would reinstate an early morning link from Surrey to the North with just one change outside London very early in the journey, at a station with step free access where fewer people would probably board than at Reading. I believe the current option retains train managers' route knowledge but AFAIK is of little use to the average passenger.

 

[dk1]

Anything about XC services? I keep hoping that they abolish that worthless Guildford to Newcastle service, which has all the reliability of a Trabant.

They should either put another couple of them in or clear off out.

It does seem a pointless box ticking exercise. Then again its only in marginal time & very little else the Voyager would be doing at these times.

 

[swt_passenger]

It does seem a pointless box ticking exercise. Then again its only in marginal time & very little else the Voyager would be doing at these times.

It is a franchise requirement to provide one train each way to Guildford, because 'stakeholders' insisted upon it when the 2007 franchise was consulted on, and DfT therefore wrote it into the spec.

It also provides the key benefit of route retention knowledge, because in combination with the ECS segment from/to Eastleigh (via Havant and Farehan) it includes nearly all of the diversionary route used by Bournemouth services when Basingstoke is blocked.

I thought HarleyDavidson was usually fairly critical of the lack of diversionary route training for SWT?

 

[dk1]

It is a franchise requirement to provide one train each way to Guildford, because 'stakeholders' insisted upon it when the 2007 franchise was consulted on, and DfT therefore wrote it into the spec.

It also provides the key benefit of route retention knowledge, because in combination with the ECS segment from/to Eastleigh (via Havant and Farehan) it includes nearly all of the diversionary route used by Bournemouth services when Basingstoke is blocked.

Thats fair enough. Most likely been asked before but does TM travel pass from Reading or join at Eastleigh?

 

[physics34]

It's also good for many other people. One of the only possible uses of those services running from South Croydon appears to be for short hops for local schoolchildren, who have been known to promptly trash swathes of the trains on more than one occasion. This means the trains remain grubby until picking up a travelling cleaner at some point on the WLL. This change will mean that the trains are a bit cleaner on weekdays for many passengers boarding further North.

.

If they really wanted to provide extra services at south croydon they could have the Victoria to East Grinstead services stopping there all day.

 

[TEW]

Thats fair enough. Most likely been asked before but does TM travel pass from Reading or join at Eastleigh?

TM travels pass to/from Reading. The evening service to Guildford is quite popular, it arrives at a decent time, 1900, and is more reliable than the morning service.

 

[dk1]

TM travels pass to/from Reading. The evening service to Guildford is quite popular, it arrives at a decent time, 1900, and is more reliable than the morning service.

Cheers for that.

 

[tsr]

If they really wanted to provide extra services at south croydon they could have the Victoria to East Grinstead services stopping there all day.

Those few minutes are crucial on the way up for guards preparing to hand over their trains at East Croydon, or sell a couple more tickets - and for short platform announcements and moving into an appropriate dispatch position for Sanderstead on the way down. It can actually be easier in the peak because guards are pretty much obliged to pick a dispatch position after leaving London and stay with it for as long as possible, due to overcrowding meaning space to move through the train is at a premium, therefore they are not always under as much pressure as off-peak. Therefore calling at South Croydon off-peak is quite unattractive. As well as what happens to the Milton Keynes services...

 

[Starmill]

Where the train calls is decided by where the guard needs to be in the train? That's a new one on me. Doesn't everyone else do that the other way around?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TM travels pass to/from Reading. The evening service to Guildford is quite popular, it arrives at a decent time, 1900, and is more reliable than the morning service.

People seem to think the Virgin Trains Blackpool North service has value. It runs at the same frequency and at similar times.

 

[SprinterMan]

The London Bridge to Brighton Thameslink trains will be "run by Southern" from Dec 2015. I know it's basically the same company now but is interesting certainly.

Adam

 

[tsr]

Where the train calls is decided by where the guard needs to be in the train? That's a new one on me. Doesn't everyone else do that the other way around?

I can guarantee that if all daytime trains called at South Croydon, both revenue and time would be lost. The timetable is by no means decided by such things, but the efficiency of how the train is worked (which can be very complex on the East Grinstead line, to say the least) is taken into account. Literally every delay minute is done to death on that line. Calling at South Croydon off-peak would be actually appreciated by very few passengers and risks mucking up all sorts of arrangements which currently work adequately.

 

[Starmill]

What needs to happen if the timetabling is going to be rigorous is an examination of if there needs to be an extra train to South Croydon. If there does, a way to provide that needs to be found, and you don't use revenue issues as a reason why this might not happen. I have no idea of there is a need for this stop or not but it's very strange to suggest the main reason the idea isn't acceptable is because the guards wouldn't like it. Who are all of these East Grinstead line passengers who need to buy onboard in the daytime anyway?

 

[Stats]

The London Bridge to Brighton Thameslink trains will be "run by Southern" from Dec 2015. I know it's basically the same company now but is interesting certainly.

Adam

There is still 1tph that is a Thameslink service. It may be an error that the other is shown as Southern as they will both be the Thameslink Cambridge service come 2018.

 

[gtr driver]

What needs to happen if the timetabling is going to be rigorous is an examination of if there needs to be an extra train to South Croydon. If there does, a way to provide that needs to be found, and you don't use revenue issues as a reason why this might not happen. I have no idea of there is a need for this stop or not but it's very strange to suggest the main reason the idea isn't acceptable is because the guards wouldn't like it. Who are all of these East Grinstead line passengers who need to buy onboard in the daytime anyway?

I wouldn't get too wound up over the need for the extra tph at South Croydon. It just happened to be an ideal candidate for turning back a train because it doesn't interfere with up and down slow traffic in the process. It already has at least 4tph in both directions all day if I'm not mistaken so for a station that far out it's well served - compare the zone 3 stations on the Catford Loop with half that - so there is little to be gained by stopping longer distance services there. On fast services it is more useful for the guard to be able to use the longer time between stops to check tickets as a larger number of passengers are likely to have got on. And from the performance side - which IS important to passengers, the peak stops at South Croydon on Grinstead trains invariably introduce a greater delay to services which are often already late having been bogged down outside East Croydon - and these are then holding up the stoppers to Tattenham, Caterham, Reigate etc. More such stops would create that problem all day. Sometimes what seem like good ideas have unforeseen consequences.

 

[infobleep]

It is a franchise requirement to provide one train each way to Guildford, because 'stakeholders' insisted upon it when the 2007 franchise was consulted on, and DfT therefore wrote it into the spec.

It also provides the key benefit of route retention knowledge, because in combination with the ECS segment from/to Eastleigh (via Havant and Farehan) it includes nearly all of the diversionary route used by Bournemouth services when Basingstoke is blocked.

I thought HarleyDavidson was usually fairly critical of the lack of diversionary route training for SWT?

I personally would like to see more from Guildford. When trains are diverted View Guildford at weekends far more advanced purchase tickets from Guilford to stations on the Cross Country Trains route are available compared to the usual timetable.

I guess another alternative would be to make more advanced purchase tickets available from Guildford even when their is no diversion through Guildford.

 

[swt_passenger]

I personally would like to see more from Guildford.

They'd need more trains to do that. As mentioned numerous times before, usually in the regular 'XC changes' threads. Why do we keep going over the same stuff?