December 2012 timetable changes

[Eagle]

It's the second-largest town in the country, as I recall, after Reading.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Third after Reading and Dudley according to http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/Populations/TownsTable1.asp, which works off actual town populations and not urban districts etc.

 

[gerryuk]

And the 9th, the 16th, the 23rd...

There are engineering works in early Jan.

Thanks, makes sense now.

 

[Robsignals]

[...I would like to see VT divert one or two expresses round to give it some kind of service half becoming of a place of its size though. People are too quick to write off the 210,000 person giant as a small town.

They would no longer be express as they'd get overtaken by other VTs to the fury of the delayed passengers, soon be ghost trains as everyone wedges on to faster services.

 

[MK Tom]

Third after Reading and Dudley according to http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/Populations/TownsTable1.asp, which works off actual town populations and not urban districts etc.

There is so much confusion here over what gets defined in and out. Plus most of the figures used are from 2001 (including the ones you've linked). Northampton often doesn't count Grange Park for no good reason, Reading sometimes counts Burnham and other places well outside the authority area. Going by continuous urban area MK overtook Northampton back in 2006. Discounting Newport Pagnell they're about the same now. Dudley's another weird case because if its boundaries with the rest of the West Midlands. Sometimes Croydon gets thrown in there too.

At the end of the day they're all cities in my book and St. Asaph definitely isn't.

I appreciate the point about overtaken expresses, which is why the Northampton loop should've been upgraded with the rest of the WCML at least to 100mph.

 

[martinsh]

which is why the Northampton loop should've been upgraded with the rest of the WCML at least to 100mph.

Specially since it's used so frequently for diversions of 125mph capable trains - and ALL stock used on it is 100mph capable.

 

[87015]

The stuff on NRE's website (and in the front of the NRTT) seems to be provided individually by the TOCs, with varying levels of detail. Some are extremely detailed, SE in particular, and some are pointlessly vague.

All info is requested by NRE to TOCs - easy way to gauge the TOCs level of interest by what they send back...

 

[tbtc]

I would like to see VT divert one or two expresses round to give it some kind of service half becoming of a place of its size though. People are too quick to write off the 210,000 person giant as a small town.

They wouldn't be expresses if they were diverted via Northampton though. For the twenty minute penalty on a Glasgow/ Manchester/ Liverpool - London service you could serve a few extra places further north instead - the kind of places that don't already have a reasonable London service.

 

[dvboy]

Just had a look at my usual commuter trains, each now departs a minute later but arrives the same time. Nothing major to report between Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Someone at National Rail hasn't done there research, as the Marple/New Mills/Rose Hill service's have been almost completely changed


Or Northern haven't told them

Furness Vale is losing it's calling point on the main peak train into Manchester (ex Buxton 07:49) and peak train out of Manchester (17:22). Northern want to speed the train up by 2 mins. On a separate topic, I wish they'd cut out heaton chapel and Levenshulme during the day. I've got old timetables from the early 90s and the journey always used to take 50 mins Bux-Man. Now it is 1hour. That's progress for you.

 

[323235]

The 1722 is still showing as calling at Furness on Realtime Trains and East Coast.

 

[VideozVideoz]

The 1722 is still showing as calling at Furness on Realtime Trains and East Coast.

Not in the new Northern timetable from December though....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The end of short era in Yorkshire beckons in December too, as the West Yorkshire Grand Tour is split - from December the service will be:

- Selby-Bradford Int-Huddersfield; and
- Huddersfield-Wakefield Westgate.

Operating as two physically separate services, with connections to each either way at Huddersfield.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should emphasise that it still operates back to Leeds only from Selby, the arrangement with the Manchester Vic trains hasn't changed!

 

[323235]

Not in the new Northern timetable from December though....

I have tweeted them about it as the the 0739 Buxton - Manchester Piccadilly is accurately showing on the online timetable sources as omitting Furness.

Edit : They have just tweeted back to confirm that the service is non-stop through Furness and they will be making the relevant corrections to ensure journey planners reflect this.

 

[infobleep]

1727 (9 minutes slower) & 1757* which to be fair is accelerated by 15 mins to Bexhill. There are some Sunday improvements, extra am peak trains on West London line and an earlier 0518SX Uckfield - London Bridge.

So when Gatwick platform work is finished will Southern shorten the time it takes or will they just leave it as it is. They are certainly not promoting slower trains on their posters. I guess that isn't good publicity, no matter how you try to promote it.

Of course this does mean just 8 minutes to catch the 18.40 to Brighton at Clapham Junction, when coming off the train on the WLL. Good job the connection time for Southern is 5 minutes at Clapham Junction. For South West Train it's 10 minutes. I can only assume South West Train passengers are slower to react than Southern passengers. As I use both during the week I guess I'm only slow on the days I travel with SWT.

As speaking of lines north of London. London Midland could do with increasing the times from Tring to Euston. The trains are always late in the PM peak periods. The Southern Milton Kynes to East Croydon trains are sometimes late but mostly the cause of this is being stuck behind a London Midland train. So if Southern can keep to time, one wonders why London Midland can't? What is the cause?

 

[Eagle]

Of course this does mean just 8 minutes to catch the 18.40 to Brighton at Clapham Junction, when coming off the train on the WLL. Good job the connection time for Southern is 5 minutes at Clapham Junction. For South West Train it's 10 minutes. I can only assume South West Train passengers are slower to react than Southern passengers. As I use both during the week I guess I'm only slow on the days I travel with SWT.

That's to do with the fact that Clapham Junction is a V-shaped station (the split being between platforms 6 and 7 with the throat of the yard in between) and SWT operate services on both arms of the V on platforms that are spatially far apart. Southern only use the souther arm of the station, so all their platforms are close together.

In this case the connection between the WLL and Brighton fast will generally be from platform 17 to 13 (or sometimes 15), which isn't too far.

 

[tbtc]

The end of short era in Yorkshire beckons in December too, as the West Yorkshire Grand Tour is split - from December the service will be:

- Selby-Bradford Int-Huddersfield; and
- Huddersfield-Wakefield Westgate.

Operating as two physically separate services, with connections to each either way at Huddersfield.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should emphasise that it still operates back to Leeds only from Selby, the arrangement with the Manchester Vic trains hasn't changed!

Am surprised at this as the doubling back to Westgate means that the Huddersfield - Wakefield service is just too long for one unit to provide hourly - hence it making some operational sense to tag it onto the Brighouse service (even though almost no passenger would need such a through service).

Cutting the Huddersfield service back to Kirkgate may allow it to work with just one unit, maybe an extension of the Leeds - Knottingley / Knottingley - Wakefield Kirkgate circuit would work. But there's going to be a huge amount of layover time if it takes two DMUs to run Huddersfield - Westgate.

 

[infobleep]

The same could be said for nearly every single location in the UK then. Nothing special about Woking.



Another difference is the layout of lines. From Wimbledon to Basingstoke, it is UP-UP-DN-DN, where as the Brighton mainline is UP-DN-UP-DN. Also the only real reason that Brighton line has a 24 hour service, is for Gatwick - remove the Airport

Would it ever be possible to make the woking lines UP-DN-UP-DN as on the Brighton line? People say the only reason the Brighton line is 24 hours is due to Gatwick but surely Gatwick to Brighton isn't that popular to keep it open 24 hours?

I was hoping the 0:50 service from London to Portsmouth, via Guildford would become daily as it was during the Olympics. Hopefully it will be included with the 100 extra coaches. After all how many people go out on a Sunday night compared to Friday and Saturday? Not sure why the 01:05 towards Bournemouth is considered worth running daily but a 0:50 towards Portsmouth isn't?

 

[calc7]

Am surprised at this as the doubling back to Westgate means that the Huddersfield - Wakefield service is just too long for one unit to provide hourly - hence it making some operational sense to tag it onto the Brighouse service (even though almost no passenger would need such a through service).

Cutting the Huddersfield service back to Kirkgate may allow it to work with just one unit, maybe an extension of the Leeds - Knottingley / Knottingley - Wakefield Kirkgate circuit would work. But there's going to be a huge amount of layover time if it takes two DMUs to run Huddersfield - Westgate.

Maybe the units are working the same diagrams, just the services are split with different headcodes? A cynic would imagine this might help their PPM figures.
This currently happens in the evenings when the timings are broadly similar to daytimes, with guards on WKF-HUD services announcing "this train then forms the xxxx hours service to Leeds calling at Brighouse, Halifax, Bradford Interchange, New Pudsey, Bramley and Leeds".

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not as far as I know calc7, I believe the Wakefield and Selby train will be two separate units altogether, each working their dedicated service. WYM's timetable makes it clear that a change of train will be required come December.

 

[tbtc]

Maybe the units are working the same diagrams, just the services are split with different headcodes? A cynic would imagine this might help their PPM figures.
This currently happens in the evenings when the timings are broadly similar to daytimes, with guards on WKF-HUD services announcing "this train then forms the xxxx hours service to Leeds calling at Brighouse, Halifax, Bradford Interchange, New Pudsey, Bramley and Leeds".

If that is the case then fair enough - they don't advertise the fact that most Leeds - Knottingley services form the next service from Knottingley to Wakefield, even though this would give Featherstone etc a direct Leeds service (on paper).

I didn't realise that there are effectively Sheffield services to the S&C (where one 158 from Sheffield forms the next service to Carlisle when it reaches Leeds), on the subject of unofficial Northern interworking!

 

[radamfi]

Table 186 does not show which trains are reservable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it ever be possible to make the woking lines UP-DN-UP-DN as on the Brighton line? People say the only reason the Brighton line is 24 hours is due to Gatwick but surely Gatwick to Brighton isn't that popular to keep it open 24 hours?

The 4 tracking ends just south of Three Bridges so the 24 hour service only runs that far. However, there are overnight coaches from Brighton to Gatwick and Heathrow, whereas Woking doesn't even have an early coach to Heathrow, despite being only a few miles from the airport. The earliest arrival is 0600, too late for check-in for some flights.

It was pointed out, however, that they can do wrong line running between Woking and London anyway.

 

[30907]

Would it ever be possible to make the woking lines UP-DN-UP-DN as on the Brighton line?

People say the only reason the Brighton line is 24 hours is due to Gatwick but surely Gatwick to Brighton isn't that popular to keep it open 24 hours?

Not sure why the 01:05 towards Bournemouth is considered worth running daily but a 0:50 towards Portsmouth isn't?

Woking - not without building/reopening extra platforms

Brighton - the all-night service when first introduced was summer only, to save BR the hassle of replacement buses/diversions via Arun Valley. But it obviously washes its face....

0105 Bournemouth - may have something to do with staff travel needs? Like the old 0024 Vic-Bromley which continued "staff only" to Faversham for years... its now the 0035 to Gillingham

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it ever be possible to make the woking lines UP-DN-UP-DN as on the Brighton line?

Not really, because the benefit of all those expensively provided flyovers and diveunders at all the junctions would be lost, and many of the stations would need to be rebuilt, because the only platforms are outside the four tracks. Imagine the requirements at just one station such as Raynes Park? The current layout is optimised for a line with branches roughly equally distributed on both sides.

Before they built the grade separated junctions, back in the 1930s I think, the main line side at least as far as Surbiton was 4 track paired by use, exactly as you describe, with the main fast lines on the west. That's why there's still an unused second underpass alongside the down line heading towards Kingston from New Malden.

It would be quite perverse to consider re-arranging the lines to suit pairing by use, all the reasons behind the 1930 alterations are still valid...

 

[infobleep]

That's to do with the fact that Clapham Junction is a V-shaped station (the split being between platforms 6 and 7 with the throat of the yard in between) and SWT operate services on both arms of the V on platforms that are spatially far apart. Southern only use the souther arm of the station, so all their platforms are close together.

In this case the connection between the WLL and Brighton fast will generally be from platform 17 to 13 (or sometimes 15), which isn't too far.

True but the connection time from platform 17 to 9 isn't that far either as both are on the same side of the V. Perhaps they should do it per train and not company.

Gatwick Airport is 10 minutes and earlier in the year some friends where coming back from Hastings to Guildford. A route via Tonbridge and Redhill was suggested. This involved 2 changes and at one of them just 5 minutes to change trains.

The unofficial route via Gatwick allowed for 9 minute change there and only 1 change of train but because the official change time there is 10 minutes, it wasn't officially allowed. Yet I would prefer them to change at Gatwick given the longer allowance between trains and the fact their is less train changes over all. More changes of trains = more chances of a train being delayed and you missing a connection.

 

[Eagle]

Perhaps they should do it per train and not company.

Indeed, as there's a lot of difference between transferring from the southbound WLL to the southbound SWML (17 to 11/12) and the southbound WLL towards Queenstown Road (17 to 3/4), even though both are Southern to SWT.

 

[infobleep]

Talking of train changes. Will they ever remove the silly train connections at Aldershot for those travelling from Guildford to Farnham. Currently Guildford to Farnahm via Aldershot, via the most logical route, is actually offiicially the longest! It takes 55 minutes!

It is officially quicker to change at North Camp and walk to Ash Vale. That takes just 38 minutes. Never done it myself. Not sure how well the route from North Camp to Ash Vale is sign posted. This is even advised when catching the last train north from Aldershot in the evening, the 23.34.

Alternatively one could spend an extra £3.80 and travel via Woking. Via Woking you have to buy two tickets because one ticket is not allowed, no easement being in place. This takes 44 minutes. Again 11 minutes quicker than the more logical route.

Of course one could always chance it and get an unofficial connection at Aldershot. It is 3 minutes between trains but the same island platforms are used and the Farnham train usually follows the Aldershot train which then has to wait a while whilst the Farnham train carrys on, if I remember correctly. Surely it would make sense to hold the Farnahm train for an extra 2 minutes to allow this time to allow 5 minutes to be reached. Then the journey time to Farnham would just be 28 minutes.

As an a side when I have ever travelled from Aldershot in the past on the last train north, 23.34, I have broken the regulations and travelled via Woking on a Guildford ticket and not changed at Ash Vale. Personally I don't fancy walking from Ash Vale to North Camp late at night and secondly, I don't see any an easement can't be put in place. If I was to buy two tickets I would be forced to travel via Woking on the outward journey. Either that or I'd have to buy 3 tickets to cover the two journeys, should I wish to travel directly to Aldershot to start with.

 

[mr_jrt]

Would it ever be possible to make the woking lines UP-DN-UP-DN as on the Brighton line? People say the only reason the Brighton line is 24 hours is due to Gatwick but surely Gatwick to Brighton isn't that popular to keep it open 24 hours?

If anything I'd prefer the Brighton lines altered to paired by direction for the benefits it offers turnbacks and overtaking. Not really viable though due to the situation with the quarry lines though.

 

[Robsignals]

There is so much confusion here over what gets defined in and out...]

Isn't the higher figure defined as "Travel to work area"?

I appreciate the point about overtaken expresses, which is why the Northampton loop should've been upgraded with the rest of the WCML at least to 100mph.

Still get overtaken, with the station call would still cost ~10 mins at 100mph, ~9 mins at 125mph..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So when Gatwick platform work is finished will Southern shorten the time it takes or will they just leave it as it is. They are certainly not promoting slower trains on their posters. I guess that isn't good publicity, no matter how you try to promote it.

It's Gatwick + London Bridge + bunching of trains Vic - E Croydon in PM peak. Southern are saying that some of these trains run late every PM and the extra time just reflects this, they're claiming it will be a more reliable service. No chance of going back to current timings - a total timetable recast is being planned for the merger of Southern and FCC to allow for the high capacity Thameslink service.

As speaking of lines north of London. London Midland could do with increasing the times from Tring to Euston. The trains are always late in the PM peak periods. The Southern Milton Kynes to East Croydon trains are sometimes late but mostly the cause of this is being stuck behind a London Midland train. So if Southern can keep to time, one wonders why London Midland can't? What is the cause?

A lot more people use the LM trains than Southern.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Each journey on the new Snow Hill Lines timetable now has the number of carriages above each journey, so diagrams should be easier to work out

Yes and it confirms 2 coach trains running on a Sunday when it's only 1 tph from Kidderminster and they are wedged worse than the weekday peak trains whilst Tyseley is full of units! sat doing nothing!!!