Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Letter -Help

[utd84]

Hi All,

I have been reading the forum for advice before I received my letter but now want to post and get some advice if possible.

I travelled into Liverpool Lime Street at the end of November. As the train was due, I got on the train from a station without purchasing a ticket thinking I could get one on the train. There was no conductor on the route and so I thought I would be able to get one at the end destination. There was no facility to purchase a ticket and so I walked towards the barriers to explain my situation.

While queuing I saw that there were inspectors on at the gate and were pulling people up and panicked and produced a ticket from another route a few days earlier. They checked the ticket and I was pulled up and taken to one side where my details were taken.

For some reason I told the attendant that I had purchased a ticket from the ticket office and that I had lost it and that is why I had produced the wrong ticket. (I know that this was incredibly stupid but can't change what I said.) I offered to purchase another ticket for the journey but was refused and was told that I would be written to and asked to pay the costs.

A letter has just landed asking me to give basic details and any extra information and send it back to Northern Rails Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Department.

I am being asked to give them basic details of the journey and have a chance to explain the situation.

I would just like some advice on how to reply to the letter. I am willing to pay any costs to keep it from going to court as this would make me lose my job and only now do I realise the full consequences of my actions and what could happen.

Could someone please help me draft a response to this letter please as I am unsure of what not to say.

Many thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

[Gathursty]

Which station did you travel from? What time did you get on the train?

Merseyrail operated stations tend to have a manned ticket office open from first till last train and may or may not have ticket machines (confirm this others?) so you may be in a sticky wicket if you've left from anywhere including and inbetween Garswood, Newton-le-Willows, Southport, Kirkby, Ormskirk, Hough Green, New Brighton, West Kirby, Ellesmere Port and Chester to Liverpool.
You may be lucky if there was a note on the window saying 'I've gone to the toilet. BRB, Purchase at destination'

 

[fowler9]

You are a bit stuck mate if you travelled in to Lime Street High level. At least until recently there was a facility to buy a ticket platform side apart from platforms 8 and 9 where no one ever collects tickets.... well almost always anyway. There aren't any stations on Northern Rails Merseytravel network which aren't normally staffed. On most of the trains you can get hold of a guard. To reach the ticket barriers at Lime Street High Level without a ticket you normally have to have passed 3 different places you can buy a ticket. Apologies if this wasn't high level because it will be irrelevant, also they may no longer be selling tickets platform side.

 

[Gathursty]

There aren't any stations on Northern Rails Merseytravel network which aren't normally staffed.

Double negative!

 

[fowler9]

Double negative!

Well it's not a grammar contest but you might want to read what I said again. I am pretty sure that there not being stations that are not staffed doesn't come under the same rule. How else would I word that? There are stations that are not staffed? There are not stations that are staffed? I think the only way to explain it is that there are not stations that are not staffed. By all means fire away.

Alright, I could have said that all stations are staffed but what I said was not the same as the double negative you pointed out.

It wasn't the same as some kid saying "I didn't say nothing" and thus contradict myself if that's what you meant.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As you might have realised from the other threads you have read, there is now a risk of a Prosecution for the Criminal Offence of travelling without a valid ticket and with the intention of avoiding payment of the fare - both these conditions appear to be satisfied by the facts you have presented on here, facts which also appear to have been presented to Northern Rail.

If this is the first time that you have been suspected of fare evasion by that Company, then you are likely to find that the matter is processed under the Company's new Fixed Penalty scheme which offers ticketless passengers the opportunity to pay an administrative fee of £80 in lieu of further investigation and Prosecution.

However, that scheme is not offered automatically, and the response you make to the Company at this stage is likely to influence the outcome - outcomes which range from a simple request for the fare due, through the £80 fee, to a successful Prosecution in Court. Reading through your report on here, I was struck by something rather incredible - the large number of coincidences that occurred to you during travel that day compounded by the stories of the lost ticket and then the explanation of the wrong ticket and having that expired ticket with you. If I was the Investigator, I would be surprised at that complexity and those coincidences - you might want to reflect on this thought before you reply to the Company.

If (and I know that this is not what you have posted on here) an opportunist Fare Evader is caught, they would be well advised to present an honest and a much simpler explanation than the circumstances you have described on here about your situation.
I do advise you to offer the fare due, plus full compensation for their administrative costs in investigating this matter.

Having said all that, I'm a little surprised to learn that your job will be lost. Perhaps you don't want to tell us on here who your employer is and what their policy is in relation to 'crimes of dishonesty', but if any employer's standards of probity really are that high, then perhaps you would agree that, based on your report on here, you don't fulfill those exacting standards? There is a lot of information in the public domain about the DBS and about National Security Vetting and Developed Vetting (applying to persons dealing with Official Secrets and in the armed forces or their contractors) who would be predjudiced by your circumstances. As you are working in these sensitive fields then I advise seeking professional and confidential advice, if you are not, then please confirm in general terms how "this would make me lose my job".

 

[Gathursty]

...

I'm sorry for picking. I understand your follow up post. I just sometimes get mixed up when reading so wanted to see if you were correcting me or confirming my contribution. I do venture into Liverpool sometimes but not 100% on ticket office provision on the Newton-le-Willows section.

 

[utd84]

Which station did you travel from? What time did you get on the train?

Merseyrail operated stations tend to have a manned ticket office open from first till last train and may or may not have ticket machines (confirm this others?) so you may be in a sticky wicket if you've left from anywhere including and inbetween Garswood, Newton-le-Willows, Southport, Kirkby, Ormskirk, Hough Green, New Brighton, West Kirby, Ellesmere Port and Chester to Liverpool.
You may be lucky if there was a note on the window saying 'I've gone to the toilet. BRB, Purchase at destination'

I got on the train at Earlestown which doesn't have a ticket machine but does have an office. I bypassed the office thinking I could get one on the train.

 

[utd84]

As you might have realised from the other threads you have read, there is now a risk of a Prosecution for the Criminal Offence of travelling without a valid ticket and with the intention of avoiding payment of the fare - both these conditions appear to be satisfied by the facts you have presented on here, facts which also appear to have been presented to Northern Rail.

If this is the first time that you have been suspected of fare evasion by that Company, then you are likely to find that the matter is processed under the Company's new Fixed Penalty scheme which offers ticketless passengers the opportunity to pay an administrative fee of £80 in lieu of further investigation and Prosecution.

However, that scheme is not offered automatically, and the response you make to the Company at this stage is likely to influence the outcome - outcomes which range from a simple request for the fare due, through the £80 fee, to a successful Prosecution in Court. Reading through your report on here, I was struck by something rather incredible - the large number of coincidences that occurred to you during travel that day compounded by the stories of the lost ticket and then the explanation of the wrong ticket and having that expired ticket with you. If I was the Investigator, I would be surprised at that complexity and those coincidences - you might want to reflect on this thought before you reply to the Company.

If (and I know that this is not what you have posted on here) an opportunist Fare Evader is caught, they would be well advised to present an honest and a much simpler explanation than the circumstances you have described on here about your situation.
I do advise you to offer the fare due, plus full compensation for their administrative costs in investigating this matter.

Having said all that, I'm a little surprised to learn that your job will be lost. Perhaps you don't want to tell us on here who your employer is and what their policy is in relation to 'crimes of dishonesty', but if any employer's standards of probity really are that high, then perhaps you would agree that, based on your report on here, you don't fulfill those exacting standards? There is a lot of information in the public domain about the DBS and about National Security Vetting and Developed Vetting (applying to persons dealing with Official Secrets and in the armed forces or their contractors) who would be predjudiced by your circumstances. As you are working in these sensitive fields then I advise seeking professional and confidential advice, if you are not, then please confirm in general terms how "this would make me lose my job".

Thank you for your post and comments. I am an infrequent traveller on the train and the last time I travelled into Lime Street there was a conductor on the train. I didn't realise that not purchasing a ticket before you travel is an offence and have made the situation far worse by my actions at the destination station. Do you suggest that I write an apology to them for their time in handling this matter, offer them the fare plus costs of administration and also explain how I have greatly learned from this experience and will ensure that I purchase a ticket before boarding next time I travel? The only thing is that it won't match with my statement that I gave at the station.

I am not a fare evader, I would have paid on the day as the costs would have been reimbursed by my employer but for a complete mind lapse i made a huge error of judgement and have landed myslef in a situation I never want to be in again.

Do you think I should say the above in my letter?

With regards to my employment, I know that certain criminal offences would not be tolerated and dependant in the offence it could make me lose my job but would definitely impact on my chosen career. I work with residents to enhance their engagement with their housing association.

Thanks for your help.

I work within a company

 

[fowler9]

Thank you for your post and comments. I am an infrequent traveller on the train and the last time I travelled into Lime Street there was a conductor on the train. I didn't realise that not purchasing a ticket before you travel is an offence and have made the situation far worse by my actions at the destination station. Do you suggest that I write an apology to them for their time in handling this matter, offer them the fare plus costs of administration and also explain how I have greatly learned from this experience and will ensure that I purchase a ticket before boarding next time I travel? The only thing is that it won't match with my statement that I gave at the station.

I am not a fare evader, I would have paid on the day as the costs would have been reimbursed by my employer but for a complete mind lapse i made a huge error of judgement and have landed myslef in a situation I never want to be in again.

Do you think I should say the above in my letter?

With regards to my employment, I know that certain criminal offences would not be tolerated and dependant in the offence it could make me lose my job but would definitely impact on my chosen career. I work with residents to enhance their engagement with their housing association.

Thanks for your help.

I work within a company

I don't think anyone in housing would bar you from working because of a train ticket offence but I would recommend you get some professional advice from somewhere. I worked for a housing association with a girl who got kicked out of Australia for having a blag passport. If that was alright I doubt that they would be to bothered about you being less than scrupulous in your buying of train tickets. I hasten to add that I don't recommend faking passports or bunking on trains.

 

[Hardcastle]

Why you did not go to the conductor straight away on boarding the train & explain as a regular traveller into Lime Street I guess you knew there would be checks on arrival foresight is a good thing I know I feel sorry for your dilemma.

 

[fowler9]

Why you did not go to the conductor straight away on boarding the train & explain as a regular traveller into Lime Street I guess you knew there would be checks on arrival foresight is a good thing I know I feel sorry for your dilemma.

I reckon that is the right thing to do mate. On the odd occasion I get on a train and have not been able to get a ticket I go straight to the conductor. It is very rare that you can't get one on a Northern Rail train in to Lime Street. And like I've said before when you get to Lime Street you either don't get checked on 8 or 9 or you can buy one on 1 to 6. The locals pretty much never stop at 7. Hope you get things sorted and I'm pretty sure it won't go against your career.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . .
Do you suggest that I write an apology to them for their time in handling this matter, offer them the fare plus costs of administration and also explain how I have greatly learned from this experience and will ensure that I purchase a ticket before boarding next time I travel? The only thing is that it won't match with my statement that I gave at the station.

If those facts and sentiments are true, then yes, make that apology.
It is a good question to ask if your assessment now differs from the statement you made at the time. Any Investigator will spot inconsistencies and contradictions - if you feel that a statement which is relevant and helpful to the investigation is inconsistent with another statement, then you should do your best to explain the inconsistency; if it's not relevant and helpful to the investigation, then forget it.

. . .
I am not a fare evader, I would have paid on the day as the costs would have been reimbursed by my employer but for a complete mind lapse i made a huge error of judgement and have landed myslef in a situation I never want to be in again.

Do you think I should say the above in my letter?

You could say so, but in my humble view, it is of little help in assessing the actual circumstances of a suspected offence of failure to produce a ticket with intent to avoid payment.

With regards to my employment, I know that certain criminal offences would not be tolerated and dependant in the offence it could make me lose my job but would definitely impact on my chosen career. I work with residents to enhance their engagement with their housing association.

On the basis of this brief summary, then I would consider that dismissal following a successful prosecution for a single incidence of fare evasion could be, and should be, vigourously contested. I am confident that such a dismissal would be overturned.

However, if my earlier assumption remains correct, that this mater will be dealt with by way of a one-off £80 admin fee plus the fare, then there will be no Criminal Conviction to worry about.

 

[utd84]

If those facts and sentiments are true, then yes, make that apology.
It is a good question to ask if your assessment now differs from the statement you made at the time. Any Investigator will spot inconsistencies and contradictions - if you feel that a statement which is relevant and helpful to the investigation is inconsistent with another statement, then you should do your best to explain the inconsistency; if it's not relevant and helpful to the investigation, then forget it.

Do you mean that I should continue with my original statement (given to the attendant), don't mention my previous statement in my reply and offer the costs of the fare plus admin fee as reimbursement for producing an incorrect ticket or explain that I made a complete error of judgement at that time, gave an incorrect statement and now I realise the full consequences of my actions what it could lead to, would like to offer them any financial reimbursement they see fit?

You could say so, but in my humble view, it is of little help in assessing the actual circumstances of a suspected offence of failure to produce a ticket with intent to avoid payment.

I stupidly thought on the day that to produce any ticket would be better than producing nothing but now realise that I have made it to look like I was trying not to pay for the fare and am regrettably in this situation. Only now reading into these forums do I realise the consequences of my actions.

I have never been in this situation before, i usually purchase a ticket before travelling or get one on the train, although train travel is very infrequent for me as I drive to work as i require my car during working hours. I just hope that they will allow me to reimburse them for the full costs associated with investigating this matter and can be sure that I will never find myself in this type of situation again.

On the basis of this brief summary, then I would consider that dismissal following a successful prosecution for a single incidence of fare evasion could be, and should be, vigourously contested. I am confident that such a dismissal would be overturned.

However, if my earlier assumption remains correct, that this mater will be dealt with by way of a one-off £80 admin fee plus the fare, then there will be no Criminal Conviction to worry about.

Thank you for all of your great advice, i am going to draft a letter to attach to the form they have sent me, would any of you mind reading it and giving me your opinion before i send it out please?

 

[island]

I got on the train at Earlestown which doesn't have a ticket machine but does have an office. I bypassed the office thinking I could get one on the train.

Please be aware that this is a criminal offence in itself. [Your actions at the destination made it a more serious one, but it is an offence to join a train at a station with an open ticket office without buying a ticket, unless a member of staff or an official notice gives you permission.]

I concur with DaveNewcastle's assessment that assuming you have not come to the attention of Northern Rail before for ticketing irregularities, your case is most likely to be dealt with by the issuance of a £84.40 administrative penalty, payment of which will result in the matter going no further.

 

[falcon]

Please be aware that this is a criminal offence in itself. [Your actions at the destination made it a more serious one, but it is an offence to join a train at a station with an open ticket office without buying a ticket, unless a member of staff or an official notice gives you permission.]

I concur with DaveNewcastle's assessment that assuming you have not come to the attention of Northern Rail before for ticketing irregularities, your case is most likely to be dealt with by the issuance of a £84.40 administrative penalty, payment of which will result in the matter going no further.

Just a bye law offense to pass an open ticket office and not buy.Criminal offense requires a deception an intention to avoid payment.:roll:

 

[maniacmartin]

Just a bye law offense to pass an open ticket office and not buy.Criminal offense requires a deception an intention to avoid payment.:roll:

Have a read of the legal page of our Ticketting Guide.

The byelaw offence is criminal, however it is non-recordable.
I also believe there is some case law that passing a single opportunity to pay could be enough to prove intent.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The byelaw offence is criminal, however it is non-recordable.

Indeed it is.

I also believe there is some case law that passing a single opportunity to pay could be enough to prove intent.

Yes, the case usually cited is Corbyn v Saunders, and that is used as an authority when a passenger is detected passing a single opportunity to pay (though it is interesting to know that Piers Corbyn had actually been detected underpaying on 46 occasions by ticket inspector (and ex-police officer) Robert Saunders before his behaviour was prosecuted).

 

[utd84]

Hi All,

I've been trying to draft my reply to be sent off within the next couple of days but can't decide how to word it.

I am going to apologise for ending up in this situation but cannot decide if I should continue with my original statement of losing my ticket (given to the attendant), don't mention my previous statement in my reply and offer the costs of the fare plus admin fee as reimbursement for producing an incorrect ticket or explain that I made a complete error of judgement at that time, gave an incorrect statement and now I realise the full consequences of my actions what it could lead to, would like to offer them any financial reimbursement they see fit?

Any opinions on how to proceed would be welcome.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would anyone be kind enough to offer to read my response before I sent it off tomorrow? If so then please let me know and i will send it to you.

Thank you in advance for any offers and for everyones help in this matter.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . Would anyone be kind enough to offer to read my response before I sent it off tomorrow? If so then please let me know and i will send it to you.

I'm unable to to do that for you and in the time available.

However, if it helps, I will say this:

Tell only the truth.

If the truth contradicts your earlier statement, then don't try to reconcile them or discuss the issue. The reason for making a false statement is something only you will know. Consider that reason (e.g. lack of money, derranged state of mind, fear of authority, anxiety, dislike of authority, opportunist tendencies, whatever it is, we don't need to know). If you think that a person assessing your suspected incident of fare evasion might find your reason helpful in understanding the difference, then say it. If you don't think so, then simply don't say it (I realise that leaves them with the problem of reconciling a contradiction, but if you can't help them, then don't do any more than acknowledge the fact - you can't do what you can't do).

If you have anything to say about your learning experience following the event, particularly anything to do with their terms and conditions of the service they provide and how they have brought that to your atention - then say it.

If you have any feelings about your actions that day which might impinge on someone's assessment of you, then say it.

If you have learned anything about the service they offer, subsequent to that incident, then say it.

You will have to write the words, but perhaps this will help you a little.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I am going to apologise for ending up in this situation but cannot decide if I should continue with my original statement of losing my ticket (given to the attendant),

Whatever you put in your letter and whatever else you might have said, if it isn't true, don't repeat it.

don't mention my previous statement in my reply and offer the costs of the fare plus admin fee as reimbursement for producing an incorrect ticket or explain that I made a complete error of judgement at that time, gave an incorrect statement and now I realise the full consequences of my actions what it could lead to

I don't think any of us can add much of value to DaveNewcastle's excellent post, but for the important point from your question quoted above, I suggest that you have identified what you need to do very clearly for yourself

You have identified the all important need to apologise and you can ask if the TOC will consider allowing you to settle this by paying any fares and all of their reasonably incurred costs in dealing with your actions.

Do be prepared for rejection, the TOC is not obliged to accept your offer and may proceed to prosecution, but in my experience if the letter comes over to the reader as sincere and appears to be an expression of genuine remorse, they will give it serious consideration.