Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit

[Thomas272]

Hello,

I am looking to reply to a letter from Northern Rail and would appreciare it if one of the more experienced members on this site could cast their eyes over it.

This is in response to a letter asking for my explanation of events with an unsatisfactory explanation leading to possible legal action under the Regulations of Railway Act 1889.

If anyone is happy to do this i will find out how to PM you and send it over.

Also does anyone have an opinion on how likely Northern Rail are to push for a trial, i have read contrasting things. This is the first time i have been without a ticket in 7 years of commuting, would that make any difference.

Thanks in Advance.

 

[maniacmartin]

Could you elaborate on what journey you made and where were you stopped?
What did the conversation between you and the rail staff consist of?

Without further information, I think it will be hard for anyone to be able to offer much advice, however given that their letter mentions the Regulation of Railway Act, and not the less serious (but easier for them to prosecute as they don't need to prove intent) Railway Byelaws, then I'd be willing to bet that the evidence they have against you is quite strong, so they might well be keen to take the matter all the way to court.

You need to make a certain number of public posts (5 possibly?) before the forum software will let you send PMs, unless a moderator overrides this

 

[W230]

Also does anyone have an opinion on how likely Northern Rail are to push for a trial, i have read contrasting things.

I guess it will depend on the individual circumstances and they would take each case on its merits etc. I think it would be impossible to say.

This is the first time i have been without a ticket in 7 years of commuting, would that make any difference.

And you got caught?! Now that really is bad luck! Sorry that's the cynic in me -ignore it!

I'm not sure how you would be able to prove that you bought a ticket every day but I'm guessing if you commute then you would have a season ticket? If you could show evidence of these being purchased then it may help. But then i'm confused why you wouldn't have a ticket then? Or do you get a daily ticket each day? Again, if you could show that you got one every day for seven years and didn't on the day in question then it may help. But lots of random missed days certainly will not!

Think a bit more info might be needed to help.

 

[156441]

Northern are s**t hot on top of prosecutions at the moment and are going to town on people due to the vast numbers who travel ticketless on our network.

I'm assuming you have attempted to walk out of a manned station with no ticket as that usually how people get caught out under these circumstances.

Personally I'd answer the letter Northern have sent you, apologise and offer to pay the full fare plus any costs they may seem reasonable.

Otherwise it's very likely you'll be having a day in court!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but as a Northern employee I know how keen they are at the moment and are running active campaigns on several of our routes out of Piccadilly to discourage ticketless travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
N.B. from another passenger I had this discussion with the full anytime fare + £80 costs was the price they paid.

 

[island]

You won't be able to PM anyone at the moment as you're too new.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern are s**t hot on top of prosecutions at the moment and are going to town on people due to the vast numbers who travel ticketless on our network.

I'm assuming you have attempted to walk out of a manned station with no ticket as that usually how people get caught out under these circumstances.

Personally I'd answer the letter Northern have sent you, apologise and offer to pay the full fare plus any costs they may seem reasonable.

Otherwise it's very likely you'll be having a day in court!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but as a Northern employee I know how keen they are at the moment and are running active campaigns on several of our routes out of Piccadilly to discourage ticketless travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
N.B. from another passenger I had this discussion with the full anytime fare + £80 costs was the price they paid.

What he said is pretty much spot on

 

[Thomas272]

First off thanks for getting back to me guys.

in response to manic martin and W230 i would be more than happy to share all this info however as you see from 156441 northern rail employees can freely access this site and read posts so I am a little wary. w230 I have no problem with people being cynical, in fact I am a little cynical in the year I have been commuting from the station i departed from the ticket office has never been closed but on the day I there is a sting operation the stutters are down and the main entrance is closed.

hmmm im not really to sure what to do i cant pm anyone and I don't participially want to discuss all the details i think i will just take the advice given by 156441, your response was very helpful my situation is very much as described and my letter is very much as you suggested.

 

[34D]

First off thanks for getting back to me guys.

in response to manic martin and W230 i would be more than happy to share all this info however as you see from 156441 northern rail employees can freely access this site and read posts so I am a little wary. w230 I have no problem with people being cynical, in fact I am a little cynical in the year I have been commuting from the station i departed from the ticket office has never been closed but on the day I there is a sting operation the stutters are down and the main entrance is closed.

hmmm im not really to sure what to do i cant pm anyone and I don't participially want to discuss all the details i think i will just take the advice given by 156441, your response was very helpful my situation is very much as described and my letter is very much as you suggested.

If the ticket office at your starting station was closed unexpectedly, then what happened on train or at the destination?

 

[156441]

Thomas, the staff that comment on here including myself and ANorthernguard (and others) from Northern usually do so to help so as such you'd find no harm in telling your story here. There are other members who may be able to advise you better than we can having maybe been in similar situations or having a deeper understanding of 'the rules'.

Based on my knowledge of Northerns sting operations and my knowledge of the lines I work along I'm going to make some assumptions based on the limited info gained so far.

You travelled from a main terminus station, where facilities are available for the purchase of tickets?

You avoided/didn't find/didn't see a conductor on the train.

On arrival at your local station you made no attempt to purchase a ticket and on exit found a block by G4S and possibly BTP?

You admitted at the time travelling from the main terminus station without buying a ticket?

Feel free to give the info mate loads of people are getting stung so as long as you don't ID yourself it shouldn't be a problem!!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Further to 156441's experienced guess, I would add that Northern's 'sting' operations have detected a large number of people who have been travelling without a ticket, perhaps with an excuse which has some reasonableness to it, such as broken ticket machines at the start of the journey or on-board, or else a ticket office which was closed unusually.
In these circumstances, the regular traveller who always carries a valid ticket on every other occasion need simply explain these reasons, with as much evidence as possible, including (as W230 suggests) a record of the regularly bought tickets on every other occasion.

However, the 'stings' have also revealled that a significant proportion of people appear to have forgotten which station they boarded at, or forgotten that a ticket from the day before will no longer be valid, or forgotten that they are no longer young enough for a child fare, or forgotten that their Railcard was out of date.

If you were unfortunate enough to have suffered such a slip of memory, then, a letter of more profound remorse may be appopriate, with a willingness to compensate handsomely for the error. And then just hope.

 

[Thomas272]

Thanks Guys a little more info, it’s a bit more blunt than the last one that didn’t go up.

So the day I was travelling the ticket office was closed and the shutters down over the main entrance, I had to walk to the side entrance once I got to the second entrance the train was pulling into the station (this is a bout a 5 minute walk and yes I was running late not sure if I should mention this) I asked the conductor if I could board the train without a ticket and he said that I could, he sees me everyday I travel with a valid ticket. On a side note I have checked my bank statements to show frequent purchases however as I don’t commute everyday, 4 times a week dependant on work and I have a tendency to pay for my ticket in change as I have a continuing battle to rid myself of all coins to say my bank statements could look a little sketchy is an understatement. However the G4S conductor is happy for me to say that he let me on the train and that when he sees me I always have a valid ticket, do you think this will help I don’t want to get him in any trouble unnecessarily.

On the train it was packed and there was no way anyone could get up or down the carriages.

Now this is the issue, the start of the day was a total break from my daily routine running late and the ticket office being closed however once at Piccadilly I fell back into my daily routine I spoke to my wife on the platform for 5 minutes and then picked up a paper and started thinking about my day ahead. I walked my usual way out of the station to however as soon as I stepped out of the station there were a line of police officers and NR/G4S/Debt collectors (im not sure exactly). I went to my wallet to get my ticket at this point it dawned on me so I approached the man and said I didn’t have a ticket (maybe I should have just turned back into the station?) I didn’t try to avoid him or show a false ticket, my details were taken but also some old tickets from inside my wallet too (when I was showing my drivers license and yes I did consent for them to be taken). is taking the old tickets something I should be worried about?

I appreciate it was my mistake and that I should be made to pay for it this is understandable, however if I get a criminal record it will have a massive effect on my personal life and also job. How should I phrase it/should I phrase it that I am willing to pay anything for this not to go to court and for it to be an expensive lesson well learnt.

 

[sheff1]

... however the G4S employee is happy to state that he let me on the train and that whenever he sees me i have a valid ticket, i hope that this will be a good thing to have and may support me even though i haven’t purchased all my tickets on my card. What do you guys think?

Well I think that, as Northern are asking for your explanation of events, you should mention that the G4S person let you on the train and is happy to make a statement to that effect (I assume you have their name). Of course, you will still need to explain why you did not purchase a ticket when you got to Piccadilly.

I headed to my usual exit where occasionally someone checks tickets if someone was there that day i would have realised my error however they weren’t. On exiting the station there were a line of police and Northern rail employees

Are you saying the line of ticket checkers etc was outside the station, i.e. after you had passed all the shops, restaurants etc and most importantly the ticket office?

 

[Thomas272]

Hi sheff1

yes i do have their name and employee number so i will include this.

At piccadilly I leave through i side entrace/exit as it cuts 10-15mins out of my communte so i dont walk past all the shops or ticket offices, occationally it is blocked by ticket inspectors which is not a problem becuase i have a ticket! it was outside of this exit that they were waiting.

 

[156441]

Thomas.

Your biggest problem is the leaving Picc without a ticket.
But your explanation is a good one. As suggested write Northern a letter. Include the staff members details who let you on the train.

Send in any evidence that suggests you do usually pay most of all offer to pay costs.

As I said your story does seem plausible and better than most of the rubbish cock and bull we hear.

Good luck!

 

[185]

Thanks Guys a little more info, it’s a bit more blunt than the last one that didn’t go up.

So the day I was travelling the ticket office was closed and the shutters down over the main entrance

If this was a Greater Manchester station, as a matter of course, can I suggest advising TfGM of the station, as the train company has a requirement in our area to ensure that booking offices are always open at the specified time, regardless of any fancy 'revenue operations' taking place. http://www.tfgm.com/Corporate/contactus/Pages/commenting_on_services.aspx

Any planned closure of a booking office must have correct notice given by Northern Rail, othewise they are in breach of their agreed quality standards contract with the local PTE.

 

[Thomas272]

OK thanks guys my letter goes in today by recorded delivery. I am going to include the employees details and my version of events and also offer to pay for all their costs.

185 your point is very interesting i will look into it a little further before the letter goes however the office was closed due to staff illness im not sure if there is some sort of unforseen circumstances that means they can get round it.

I will responsd when i hear back but i think it might take another 2-3 months before i get a reply so dont hold your breath, although i will be .

Thanks once again.

 

[W230]

Also, don't mention that you were running late, do mention the ticket office was closed and you always buy a ticket there.

The problem with telling them you were running late is that they may query how you would have had time to buy a ticket and still get the train had the office been open anyway.

 

[Thomas272]

ah crap its already gone i wish you hadnt have posted that now lol

 

[455driver]

Also, don't mention that you were running late, do mention the ticket office was closed and you always buy a ticket there.

The problem with telling them you were running late is that they may query how you would have had time to buy a ticket and still get the train had the office been open anyway.

The problem with being "selective" with the truth is that they will simply ask a couple of questions to find out the information they want/need.

 

[W230]

The problem with being "selective" with the truth is that they will simply ask a couple of questions to find out the information they want/need.

Absolutely - let them ask! Though the fact that the OP was running late is irrelevant if the ticket office was closed. No point digging a whole for yourself.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Apart from the closed booking office, was there also a self-service machine at your originating station?

 

[Tibbs]

The problem with being "selective" with the truth is that they will simply ask a couple of questions to find out the information they want/need.

Why is that a problem?

 

[W230]

Apart from the closed booking office, was there also a self-service machine at your originating station?

I didn't mention that as I assumed not due to no mention by the OP but a very valid point!

Ah well - the letters gone now...

 

[Thomas272]

Hi guys just a quick update to say i received a letter over the weekend from Northern Rail stating a fixed penalty fare 80 + 2.70 of the ticket.

Im obviously very relieved and will get this paid off straight away.

Thanks everyone for the assistance.

 

[bb21]

Thank you for notifying us of the outcome. Good luck in the future.