Debit Cards and Contactless Payments

[Dai Corner]

Note: Split from a thread in Disputes and Prosecutions

There are usually 3 or 4 selling tickets at the excess desk on arrival of that Beach Line train.

XC are phasing in the new Star Mobile (with lengthy paper tickets) so the machinery may not have been familiar to the guard but something that's often done onboard when someone is leaving at a barriered station where a machine didn't work onboard would be a little note (often on the back of a blank ticket !) from the guard explaining.........

But finally and this is only an observation and far from an allegation about the OP- on the avantix a lot of people got in the habit of "paying" onboard but with no money in the bank because they knew the system wasn't connected until the PDA was docked

Does Star Mobile generate a void card receipt when it's unable to verify payment with the bank?

 

[MartinG]

Does Star Mobile generate a void card receipt when it's unable to verify payment with the bank?

Yes

 

[thejuggler]

Does Star Mobile generate a void card receipt when it's unable to verify payment with the bank?

Each time I buy a ticket and end up with half a toilet roll there is no bank interaction as its a contactless transaction and not a live connection. Never had one fail, unlike the old mobile technology system which barely worked due to poor reception.

The transactions never show as pending on my account either.

 

[Dai Corner]

Each time I buy a ticket and end up with half a toilet roll there is no bank interaction as its a contactless transaction and not a live connection. Never had one fail, unlike the old mobile technology system which barely worked due to poor reception.

The transactions never show as pending on my account either.

Usually a PIN has to be entered and communication with the bank takes place if the transaction is over a certain amount. I don't know what this amount is for guards' machines in general or Star Mobile in particular.

 

[najaB]

I don't know what this amount is for guards' machines in general or Star Mobile in particular.

I believe it is actually a property of the card rather than machine.

 

[Dai Corner]

I believe it is actually a property of the card rather than machine.

According to this document from the UK Cards Association it's always £30.

http://www.theukcardsassociation.or...rds Guide for Retailers Contactless FINAL.pdf

 

[najaB]

According to this document from the UK Cards Association it's always £30.

As I understand things, it's a bit more nuanced than that. The card has a ceiling limit set for contactless transactions, if the transaction amount exceeds that limit then cardholder authorisation is required.

UK banks have, generally, set that limit at £30 (up from £20 when contactless was first introduced). However, the limit is set per-currency and many banks neglect to set a limit for non-Sterling transactions (and foreign banks don't set it for Sterling). This means that a card issued by non-UK bank could quite conceivably be used to buy a car by contactless payment in the UK (and vv)!

 

[daodao]

Usually a PIN has to be entered and communication with the bank takes place if the transaction is over a certain amount. I don't know what this amount is for guards' machines in general or Star Mobile in particular.

The failed transaction receipt should show the amount of the transaction and should provide evidence of an attempt to pay on the 2nd train.

However, the OP stated that the GWR official at Exeter "insisted that I should have bought a ticket at Temple Meads." This is the crux of the matter.

While officially it is permitted not to delay one's journey in order to buy a ticket at a changing point before boarding a 2nd train, proving that one was unable to buy a ticket in the time between arrival of the 1st train and departure of the 2nd train is likely to be challenging. Providing that a settlement can be reached that does not result in a criminal record, would it be cheaper/simpler to pay up if the railway company insists on pursuing the matter? This is not advice - merely a question for discussion.

Travelling on long-distance journeys starting from unmanned stations without a working TVM on suburban branch lines with frequent stops, without having purchased a ticket in advance, and making tight connections at the central city station, is particularly fraught from this perspective. I often used to travel from Whitchurch (Glam) on such journeys, but fortunately this was only 1 stop from the terminus at Coryton and I only recall being unable to buy a ticket from the guard on 1 occasion, when fortunately I was only travelling to Queen St. However, it was evident that passengers from stops further along the line, particularly Heath Low Level, were often unable to do so, although at morning peaks, there was occasionally a ticket seller on the platform at this station. I no longer live in Cardiff, but understand that Valley Lines stations now have card-only TVMs; however, do they allow purchase of long-distance tickets?

 

[island]

According to this document from the UK Cards Association it's always £30.

http://www.theukcardsassociation.or...rds Guide for Retailers Contactless FINAL.pdf

Contactless card transactions are capped at £30 but devices such as iPhones can be used for higher amounts. Also, a contactless card transaction under £30 may still seek to go online for authorisation, depending on the card parameters.

 

[ninhog]

Contactless card transactions are capped at £30 but devices such as iPhones can be used for higher amounts. Also, a contactless card transaction under £30 may still seek to go online for authorisation, depending on the card parameters.

Contactless payments don't go through authorisation, hence no requirement to enter your PIN and why contactless cards are only available to those with a suitable bank rating.

 

[island]

Contactless payments don't go through authorisation, hence no requirement to enter your PIN and why contactless cards are only available to those with a suitable bank rating.

That is not correct.

 

[talltim]

You certainly need to enter a PIN after a certain number of concecutive contactless transactions, this count is reset if you use an ATM or use the card for a larger payment (thus entering the PIN)
Using contactless for travel on TfL seems to be an exception to this.

 

[najaB]

Using contactless for travel on TfL seems to be an exception to this.

Because no payment is taken at the time of travel.

 

[Abpj17]

You certainly need to enter a PIN after a certain number of concecutive contactless transactions, this count is reset if you use an ATM or use the card for a larger payment (thus entering the PIN)
Using contactless for travel on TfL seems to be an exception to this.

contactless for transport works to a different specification

http://www.theukcardsassociation.org.uk/contactless_transport/index.asp

(all transport contactless are offline payments, they don't call back to the bank for authorisation; shop contactless - again the vast majority don't call back to the bank for authorisation but will at periodic intervals if only using for contactless)

the website linked above documents the range of options (including for non-transport retail)

 

[MikeWh]

all transport contactless are offline payments, they don't call back to the bank for authorisation

Not true with TfL. The first touch of a day will often result in a (delayed) authorisation (and I see plenty of 10p authorisations to back this up). In the unusual event that the authorisation fails the card will be stopped from making further journeys. You will be allowed to exit at the end of the current journey, but that will be that. The authorisation lasts until a certain amount of travel value is made, or a significant gap of days exists between journeys. My card rarely authorises as I use it all the time; my wife's authorises most days as she's an infrequent user.

 

[ninhog]

That is not correct.

The banks need to get their acts together to establish how contactless payments are processed then. I'd worked in the banking industry for the previous 9 years (POS transactions was one of my specialist areas) and I was involved in the roll out of contactless cards when we adopted the technology. It seems we'd been misadvised by Visa.

 

[Panda]

The banks need to get their acts together to establish how contactless payments are processed then. I'd worked in the banking industry for the previous 9 years (POS transactions was one of my specialist areas) and I was involved in the roll out of contactless cards when we adopted the technology. It seems we'd been misadvised by Visa.

It's not the banks who set the rules, the card schemes do. Not sure why they "need to get their act together" - if industry players didn't know how contactless payments were processed, then it simply wouldn't work.

 

[ninhog]

It's not the banks who set the rules, the card schemes do. Not sure why they "need to get their act together" - if industry players didn't know how contactless payments were processed, then it simply wouldn't work.

My point is that banks process contactless transactions without authorisation yet I was told this information was incorrect...

 

[najaB]

My point is that banks process contactless transactions without authorisation yet I was told this information was incorrect...

Because it is incorrect. I have a contactless card that authorises pretty much every transaction. It is considerably slower than my other cards.

 

[ninhog]

Because it is incorrect. I have a contactless card that authorises pretty much every transaction. It is considerably slower than my other cards.

Authorisation is the payment processing in the background. Traditional chip & PIN transactions go through an authorisation process, whereby the bank decline or authorise the transaction when it's presented for payment. If authorised, a 6 digit authorisation code is issued to the merchant, who then has a certain amount of time to take the payment. During this time, the transaction amount will be deducted from any available balance.
If the payment isn't taken within 5 or so days, the transaction amount is returned to any available balance but the payment can still be processed at a later date.
Contactless transaction bypass this whole process as there is no security verification for the transaction. This also means that the amount of a contactless transaction won't be deducted from any available balance prior to being fully processed, so contactless transactions regularly take people's account balances overdrawn because they don't keep an eye on their running balance.

 

[Dai Corner]

According to the document from the UK Card Association I linked to above

Risk managed by the card/device – for the majority of transactions, the decision-making process will be between the card or device and the terminal. No other processes (such as Stand-In Processing) will intervene.

I'm not sure what Stand-In Processing is. Could you explain ninhog?

 

[najaB]

Authorisation is the payment processing in the background...

That is exactly how one of my cards works for contactless payments.

 

[ninhog]

According to the document from the UK Card Association I linked to above



I'm not sure what Stand-In Processing is. Could you explain ninhog?

It basically means the payment will go through. The card is presented for payment which the terminal processes.

 

[island]

Authorisation is the payment processing in the background. Traditional chip & PIN transactions go through an authorisation process, whereby the bank decline or authorise the transaction when it's presented for payment. If authorised, a 6 digit authorisation code is issued to the merchant, who then has a certain amount of time to take the payment. During this time, the transaction amount will be deducted from any available balance.
If the payment isn't taken within 5 or so days, the transaction amount is returned to any available balance but the payment can still be processed at a later date.
Contactless transaction bypass this whole process as there is no security verification for the transaction. This also means that the amount of a contactless transaction won't be deducted from any available balance prior to being fully processed, so contactless transactions regularly take people's account balances overdrawn because they don't keep an eye on their running balance.

Cardholder verification and authorisation are two separate things. A transaction can have both, one or the other, or neither.

A contactless card can be programmed to seek online authorisation for all contactless transactions, seek it for all transactions over a certain amount, or to allow all contactless transactions without online authorisation. This is set by the issuer. As an example, one of my American Express cards will allow contactless transactions under £20 to proceed instantly without affecting my available balance, but contactless transactions from £20-30 will be slower as the merchant terminal is prompted to seek online authorisation, and will appear on my pending transactions.

 

[island]

It basically means the payment will go through. The card is presented for payment which the terminal processes.

It means nothing of the sort. Stand-In Processing (STIP) is a degraded level of service for online authorisations of card transactions where the merchant's terminal attempts to contact the issuing bank through the merchant's acquirer and fails because the issuing bank is unreachable or has a system issue of some sort, therefore making it impossible to determine whether the card is valid and the account has available funds. Under STIP, the card scheme (MasterCard/Visa/etc.) will attempt to handle these transactions in the place of the issuer and will approve or decline them using generic rules set by the issuer in advance.

 

[ninhog]

It means nothing of the sort. Stand-In Processing (STIP) is a degraded level of service for online authorisations of card transactions where the merchant's terminal attempts to contact the issuing bank through the merchant's acquirer and fails because the issuing bank is unreachable or has a system issue of some sort, therefore making it impossible to determine whether the card is valid and the account has available funds. Under STIP, the card scheme (MasterCard/Visa/etc.) will attempt to handle these transactions in the place of the issuer and will approve or decline them using generic rules set by the issuer in advance.

I stand corrected.

 

[reb0118]

I stand corrected.

Or even "stand - in" corrected.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

It means nothing of the sort. Stand-In Processing (STIP) is a degraded level of service for online authorisations of card transactions where the merchant's terminal attempts to contact the issuing bank through the merchant's acquirer and fails because the issuing bank is unreachable or has a system issue of some sort, therefore making it impossible to determine whether the card is valid and the account has available funds. Under STIP, the card scheme (MasterCard/Visa/etc.) will attempt to handle these transactions in the place of the issuer and will approve or decline them using generic rules set by the issuer in advance.

Just to provide ocular proof (apologies if the picture is massive), note the auth code for a contactless payment.

 

[Dai Corner]

Though we don't know whether the authorisation code was generated by the card scheme, the issuer or the terminal?

I have a receipt here for a contactless payment I made yesterday. It shows 'No Cardholder Verification' and a 5 digit 'Auth'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

AIUI even if a card calls for authorisation the retailer can decline to carry it out (for example, TfL does not authorise any ticket barrier or bus contactless transaction). The effect of that, though, is that if the payment is not processed for any reason (e.g. no funds available) the retailer loses, as it was their choice.

In my experience whether authorisation is carried out or not (it's easy to tell, because the terminal normally displays something about it) is completely separate from whether you use contactless, Chip and PIN or even stripe and signature to actually process it.