Debit card declined

[plymothian]

You have been lucky.
The offline card is one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Passenger walk past a TVM/ticket office, go to the furthest point from the guard, if the guard gets round to the passenger, passenger states they were "running late", card declines, train pull in to station, guard has to abandon transaction, passenger buggers off sans fare.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[cornishjohn]

Often it would appear contactless cards put through the chip & pin on Avantix will decline if the floor limit has been reached.... i.e because there have been too many contactless transactions.

Just to be clear - are you saying that on occasion it may not be my ability to pay that is the problem, but the TOC's ability to receive the payment? So a payment method that I have used N times in the past may this time not be available through no cause of my own?

curiouser and curiouser.

 

[DaleCooper]

Just to be clear - are you saying that on occasion it may not be my ability to pay that is the problem, but the TOC's ability to receive the payment? So a payment method that I have used N times in the past may this time not be available through no cause of my own?

curiouser and curiouser.

And through no fault of the TOC, they don't tell the banks what cards to issue. Don't fret about this, just be glad you got away with it this time and remember the excellent advice you have been given, where possible buy your ticket at the station.

 

[cornishjohn]

fault

I said "cause" not "fault"

just be glad you got away with it this time and remember the excellent advice you have been given, where possible buy your ticket at the station.

I am not the OP. But if I habitually use a certain card on a certain train most days, for a number of years now, ( NOT Northern Rail, or even their franchise area... ) how am I to know if in fact I am being "lucky"?

Cheers,

 

[PermitToTravel]

And through no fault of the TOC, they don't tell the banks what cards to issue. Don't fret about this, just be glad you got away with it this time and remember the excellent advice you have been given, where possible buy your ticket at the station.

A) cornishjohn didn't start this thread.
B) They did decide which card payment equipment to purchase. Note how frequently it's possible to pay by card for a bottle of coke on a train, but not pay for a ticket with the same card on the same train.

 

[DaleCooper]

A) cornishjohn didn't start this thread.

Sorry, I must pay more attention.

 

[najaB]

They did decide which card payment equipment to purchase. Note how frequently it's possible to pay by card for a bottle of coke on a train, but not pay for a ticket with the same card on the same train.

If that's the case, I'd say that's an eminently sensible business decision by the TOC concerned. If the customer has an online-only debit card then it's a reasonable risk to sell them a soft drink and packet of crisps (any losses will be more than made up for by the inflated prices on the rest of the day's sales), but it's not reasonable to give them the ability to buy a ticket that might cost £100 or more.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Can't one buy high value alcohol on some trains too?

 

[londonbridge]

(Although I did recently make a 13p card transaction (a banana))

I'm working in a convienience store now and often get people asking to pay small amounts for a bottle of drink or snack (ie under a quid) with a card. My record is 3p! The bloke had a bill of a few pounds and asked "Can I get rid of my change"? I said yes whereupon he dumped a whole pocketful of change on the counter. After counting it out and determining it to be 3p short he said "I'll put something back......unless I can pay 3p by card"? I said "If you want to", rang in the cash and then did 3p by card.......would love to know what the bank made of it!

 

[Flamingo]

The old EPOS machines on the buffets are swipe only, and are notoriously easy to defraud. New machines are coming in, which will be a big surprise to some...

 

[najaB]

Can't one buy high value alcohol on some trains too?

I suppose, but mainly I've only seen miniatures being sold on board. Around the £5 mark each for the most part.

 

[yorkie]

A gentle reminder to all: Please use the 'new thread' (

) button when you want to go off on a tangent, or discuss a separate, even if related, matter (such as a debate about people not bringing cash with them and paying for everything by card), rather than the reply button within a thread (and, in particular a thread about a specific dispute).

If anyone wishes to debate the matter of people not having cash on them please see the thread Surprised that some people pay for everything by card which I've split from this thread.

 

[Agent_c]

I'm working in a convienience store now and often get people asking to pay small amounts for a bottle of drink or snack (ie under a quid) with a card. My record is 3p! The bloke had a bill of a few pounds and asked "Can I get rid of my change"? I said yes whereupon he dumped a whole pocketful of change on the counter. After counting it out and determining it to be 3p short he said "I'll put something back......unless I can pay 3p by card"? I said "If you want to", rang in the cash and then did 3p by card.......would love to know what the bank made of it!

Probably cost the store more to process the transaction than 3p.

 

[plymothian]

Just to be clear - are you saying that on occasion it may not be my ability to pay that is the problem, but the TOC's ability to receive the payment? So a payment method that I have used N times in the past may this time not be available through no cause of my own?

curiouser and curiouser.

I am not the OP. But if I habitually use a certain card on a certain train most days, for a number of years now, ( NOT Northern Rail, or even their franchise area... ) how am I to know if in fact I am being "lucky"?

Cheers,

It is your bank who has agreed the floor limit with the TOC.

There are no limits to the number of contactless payments or offline transactions (below floor limit) you can make HOWEVER, your bank's anti fraud department will also be performing velocity checks on your card, if they detect something, the card will decline and the next transaction must be made online (or telephone authorised).

In either case, the TOC is allowed a 'fallback', which means a manual transaction with telephone authorisation.

In this thread's case, the declined card was not accepted, because an opportunity to pay had been passed before boarding.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

It is your bank who has agreed the floor limit with the TOC.

There are no limits to the number of contactless payments or offline transactions (below floor limit) you can make HOWEVER, your bank's anti fraud department will also be performing velocity checks on your card, if they detect something, the card will decline and the next transaction must be made online (or telephone authorised).

In either case, the TOC is allowed a 'fallback', which means a manual transaction with telephone authorisation.

In this thread's case, the declined card was not accepted, because an opportunity to pay had been passed before boarding.

The maximum value of contactless transactions you can make is only £20 regardless of what bank you're with. My contactless card declined my transaction when I tried to pay for something when I knew I had money in the bank, it was only when I phoned my bank they stated that I had reached the £20 limit for that day.

 

[najaB]

The maximum value of contactless transactions you can make is only £20 regardless of what bank you're with.

Actually, the inbuilt limit on the size of a contactless transaction is something like 999,999.99 currency units, any lower limits are applied by the bank. There was a thread discussing this recently, many banks fail to apply limits to transactions in foreign currencies which means that visitors to the UK can make contactless transactions of up to £999,999.99!

 

[LWB]

I think post 65 of this thread should be a sticky in this section or something. OPs should be directed to check their card from a transaction receipt before posting if debit card decline is an issue.

 

[najaB]

I think post 65 of this thread should be a sticky in this section or something. OPs should be directed to check their card from a transaction receipt before posting if debit card decline is an issue.

Thanks. I was looking for that post but searching for AID brought up too many results!

 

[dan96]

Okay so just to put me at ease my card was declined he didn't take any details. But said I would get a letter will I or won't I? I know some of you think I won't but I'm still worried.

 

[WillPS]

The offline card is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

I find that very hard to believe. Until recently, online only cards were branded Electron (on the Visa network) and Solo (on the Switch/Maestro UK network). Those cards were simply not accepted. It's only in the last 10 years (and most prevalently in the last 5 or 6 years) that banks/networks merged their schemes and removed the differentiation for customers.

The railways are aware of the issue. A solution in advance was possible, but not provided. For whatever reason, the railways aren't bothered about sorting it.

 

[455driver]

The railways are aware of the issue. A solution in advance was possible, but not provided. For whatever reason, the railways aren't bothered about sorting it.

What was/is the solution then?

 

[cornishjohn]

... chip & pin on Avantix will decline if the floor limit has been reached.... i.e because there have been too many contactless transactions.

It is your bank who has agreed the floor limit with the TOC.

Ah, whose floor limit? "MY" card/bank, or the "TOC's" machine/bank? Each and every clearing bank has agreed a floor limit with each and every TOC? I must confess I have not seen the phrase "floor limit" in my card's terms and conditions, so I don't know the formal definition, but I think I have a good idea what is meant.

In this thread's case, the declined card was not accepted, because an opportunity to pay had been passed before boarding.

Keeping to the thread, I understood the guard was content to sell a ticket to the OP but the machine had declined the OP's card.

Just checking the NRE website, stations on the branch line where I used to commute STILL have no ticket machine, so opportunity to buy before boarding the train is NIL.

I think post 65 of this thread should be a sticky in this section or something.

I've not seen that thread, but that post suggests all cards are a clear yes/no situation. Posts in this thread suggest to me with some cards this is not the case, and will work on trains some times but not others. I find this rather scary.

I do notice that the OP travelled from Halifax, whose NRE page says the ticket office is part time only, so there must be occasions when buy on train is needed even in their part of the world?

Apologies to Yorkie if I should be splitting the conversation but I haven't figured this out yet. I don't see a start new thread button while reading a thread...

 

[WillPS]

What was/is the solution then?

Online authorisation.

Bring on the counter argument which is that some of the time/much of the time there is no mobile coverage.

My counter to that: something is better than nothing, and something would erode the certainty with which the people doing the 'online only card trick' operate.

 

[455driver]

Online authorisation.

Bring on the counter argument which is that some of the time/much of the time there is no mobile coverage.

My counter to that: something is better than nothing, and something would erode the certainty with which the people doing the 'online only card trick' operate.

So you think a 50/50 (in some areas 20/80) chance of having your card accepted is better than a blanket yes/no do you?

You don't think that this will cause the Guards any issues then? :roll:

Any system needs to be 100% (or near enough) to be worth the effort!

 

[WillPS]

So you think a 50/50 (in some areas 20/80) chance of having your card accepted is better than a blanket yes/no do you?

You don't think that this will cause the Guards any issues then? :roll:

Any system needs to be 100% (or near enough) to be worth the effort!

Yes, I do. I have overheard conversations with people numerous times who abuse the loophole. Right now, conductors either have to:

• Write out a UPFN; or
• Call for authorisation

to extract any revenue from these people, regardless of whether there is any signal or no (and in my neck of the woods, unless you're on a Meridian/Voyager there is pretty good signal everywhere except the tunnels).

How often do you think I've seen that happen? And how often do you think I've just seen the conductor let them off or tell them to buy a ticket from their departing station (ungated) so they can get on with their job?


Now go ahead and tell me that having an EDGE/3G/4G enabled Chip and PIN handset would make no difference.

 

[najaB]

So you think a 50/50 (in some areas 20/80) chance of having your card accepted is better than a blanket yes/no do you?
...
Any system needs to be 100% (or near enough) to be worth the effort!

Given the huge investment that the mobile network operators have made over the last couple of years, not-spots are becoming less and less of a problem.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but I can travel from Perth to Inverness and have a usable 3G signal all the way (apart from in the tunnels). A few years ago I would've been lucky to have signal even half of the time.

 

[island]

The maximum value of contactless transactions you can make is only £20 regardless of what bank you're with. My contactless card declined my transaction when I tried to pay for something when I knew I had money in the bank, it was only when I phoned my bank they stated that I had reached the £20 limit for that day.

This is wrong.

 

[Llanigraham]

Online authorisation.

Bring on the counter argument which is that some of the time/much of the time there is no mobile coverage.

My counter to that: something is better than nothing, and something would erode the certainty with which the people doing the 'online only card trick' operate.

How are you going to do on-line transactions where there is no mobile signal?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Do we have to do this over and over again?

 

[VauxhallandI]

This is wrong.

Agreed. I've spent many an evening using contact less in pubs totalling well ove £20