Dealing with racism at work

[TheKnightWho]

Hi everyone,

I don't normally post about personal stuff on here, but I wanted to get some advice. My girlfriend's currently taking a year out of university for a few reasons, and she's got a job in a small, local law firm working as a low-level paralegal to get some work experience to make up for the break in her degree. All was well and good when she got a job offer last year to start in January after weeks of applications.

She began work last week, and is in an office with five other older women (mid-late 20s, early 30s) and an older man of similar age. She's 19. Everything seemed fine and dandy at first, and from what I can tell they're really nice and helpful towards getting her settled in etc.

However, every single day she tells me of all the "banter" they've been having, which mainly seems to consist of them making racist, sexist and homophobic remarks about clients, people they met on the street, whatever is in the news etc. I'm not normally one to complain when someone makes an off-colour remark, but this seems to be becoming a pretty standard thing, and I really don't think this is acceptable.

Some of the remarks have been smaller things, such as insisting on calling my girlfriend "half caste" (she's mixed race white-Asian), talking in Chinese accents whenever they talk about a Chinese client etc. But some of them wouldn't seem out of place in Nazi Germany: "I think there should be separate laws for 'gyppos' so we can lock them all up'; 'I got really annoyed at a Chinese client, so I nearly threw a rock through a Chinese restaurant on the way home haha! I'm so racist isn't that hilarious?!', 'Ched Evans' girlfriend deserved to get raped - she shouldn't have drunk if she didn't want it'. Obviously they laugh it off, but frankly this is becoming a bit of a running theme.

Am I overreacting in thinking this should be reported? My girlfriend's really unsure, because she's new, ten years younger than the rest of them, her boss joins in with it all, and she's not exactly the most confident person in the world when it comes to this sort of thing. Plus she's worried she'll either lose her job or not be able to get a reference at the end of it in September if she stirs up trouble. However, it is making her extremely uncomfortable and she's noticeably distressed by it, and frankly neither she nor I want her to be in that kind of position. Should she report this? Or is this actually pretty normal, and should she just put up with it?

 

[telstarbox]

It's not unusual for a group who've been working together for a long time to develop a certain 'gallows humour' (im sure some of the drivers and guards on here will concur) but what your girlfriend has described definitely isn't anywhere near the acceptable category.

Her colleagues sound like a lovely bunch :/ Sadly if it's a small company and her boss is joining in then reporting it might not make anything change and she might be better looking elsewhere.

 

[table38]

Going for the nuclear option of reporting it to management might have the effect of ostracising her even further. The management might not even be sympathetic!

I'd suggest watching carefully and finding someone who she can confide in; there may be someone there who isn't entirely comfortable with the banter either, but goes along with it so as not to become isolated.

If she can find a sympathetic ear amongst the original staff, then they might be able to have a quiet word with the others, and that might carry more weight than "the new girl complaining". If it's been going on for a long time, they may not even realise how upsetting it might be to a newcomer.

As an example, there was a girl at our place who was, lets just say, "at the front of the queue" when they were giving out breasts. Office banter (in a mostly male office) revolved around stuff like "why are her feet so small, she must keep toppling over" etc. Whilst appearing to go along with it, we had no idea that she actually found it quite distressing. A quiet word from another colleague put us right, and the problem was resolved overnight.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I think it's more that a lot of these comments tip over from off-colour banter into just expressing some really quite unpleasant opinions, and not necessarily humorously.

I mean, I wouldn't want to be in a room with a bunch of people ranting about locking up gypsies either, and I'm not exactly their biggest fan. The comment about throwing rocks at a Chinese restaurant was equally bad, especially when they had a laugh about being racist.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's more that a lot of these comments tip over from off-colour banter into just expressing some really quite unpleasant opinions, and not necessarily humorously.

I agree it's pretty disgraceful, but it might not be in her ongoing interest to report it, at least until she's found another job which is probably her best bet.

But beware even then - word often spreads, and if she gets known as a troublemaker she may find it hard to get a job in the area. That's not fair, and it's not right, but it's often the case.

Neil

 

[Clip]

Id report it. And then mercilessly take the **** at their own shortcomings to see how they like it.

Few years back I would've kicked their teeth in but alas belittling them is just as much fun.

 

[LateThanNever]

Hi everyone,

I don't normally post about personal stuff on here, but I wanted to get some advice. My girlfriend's currently taking a year out of university for a few reasons, and she's got a job in a small, local law firm working as a low-level paralegal to get some work experience to make up for the break in her degree. All was well and good when she got a job offer last year to start in January after weeks of applications.

She began work last week, and is in an office with five other older women (mid-late 20s, early 30s) and an older man of similar age. She's 19. Everything seemed fine and dandy at first, and from what I can tell they're really nice and helpful towards getting her settled in etc.

However, every single day she tells me of all the "banter" they've been having, which mainly seems to consist of them making racist, sexist and homophobic remarks about clients, people they met on the street, whatever is in the news etc. I'm not normally one to complain when someone makes an off-colour remark, but this seems to be becoming a pretty standard thing, and I really don't think this is acceptable.

Some of the remarks have been smaller things, such as insisting on calling my girlfriend "half caste" (she's mixed race white-Asian), talking in Chinese accents whenever they talk about a Chinese client etc. But some of them wouldn't seem out of place in Nazi Germany: "I think there should be separate laws for 'gyppos' so we can lock them all up'; 'I got really annoyed at a Chinese client, so I nearly threw a rock through a Chinese restaurant on the way home haha! I'm so racist isn't that hilarious?!', 'Ched Evans' girlfriend deserved to get raped - she shouldn't have drunk if she didn't want it'. Obviously they laugh it off, but frankly this is becoming a bit of a running theme.

Am I overreacting in thinking this should be reported? My girlfriend's really unsure, because she's new, ten years younger than the rest of them, her boss joins in with it all, and she's not exactly the most confident person in the world when it comes to this sort of thing. Plus she's worried she'll either lose her job or not be able to get a reference at the end of it in September if she stirs up trouble. However, it is making her extremely uncomfortable and she's noticeably distressed by it, and frankly neither she nor I want her to be in that kind of position. Should she report this? Or is this actually pretty normal, and should she just put up with it?

I'd think this is not that unusual. Much better they talk about then leave their feelings burning inside and which they then act on!

Best to think of diversion strategies - like don't go throwing bricks when my boyfriend/great aunt/ friend who is a judo champion etc are having a meal. You might find they'd agree to avoid those occasions...
In the end we all have to try to rub along. Think of (Irish) Dave Allen's Irish jokes.

 

[St Rollox]

As soon as, find another job.
They sound a right bunch of charmers.

 

[bangor-toad]

As soon as, find another job.
They sound a right bunch of charmers.

This is very sound advice.


If she's feeling uncomfortable at work then there's a problem - it won't get better if she does nothing.

I'd take the approach of:
First start looking for a new job.
I'd then get a copy of the company's policies and see if it's got anything relevant in it.
I'd then complain about the situation according to how it's meant to be done for that company.
If the manager doesn't do anything I'd look to complain directly to the company Directors.
Make sure there is a clear complaint and a clear "ask". Don't just say the colleagues are being nasty, say what she thinks a solution might be.
If it goes nowhere and there's further trouble redouble the efforts to find a new job.

Sadly there are nasty people everywhere and there's only so much you can do to alter them. At some point you have to just walk away for your own good.
Good luck,
Mr Toad

 

[TheKnightWho]

Thanks everyone - I'll give her the advice that I've seen on here, and we'll try and work something out.

 

[londiscape]

Thanks everyone - I'll give her the advice that I've seen on here, and we'll try and work something out.

Is your girlfriend looking to begin a career in the legal industry? I understand that such banter is not considered a rarity in this particular sector - although my limited experience of the industry was a good few years ago your story doesn't surprise me.

Despite this, the sector is reasonably big and i'm sure there will be plenty of firms that have a more professional culture, so I would recommend finding a position in an organisation which is more deserving of her talent and efforts. Whistleblowing, especially in a firm where the ill behaviour seems to be all-pervasive, is not recommended as it may cause problems in the future.

 

[Welly]

Definitely don't whistleblow! Look for a new job in a less poisonous culture.

Also discreetly note the names of the poisonous individuals for the future, you never know, your girlfriend may be reading CVs for applications and be able to bin the bad names!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Is your girlfriend looking to begin a career in the legal industry? I understand that such banter is not considered a rarity in this particular sector - although my limited experience of the industry was a good few years ago your story doesn't surprise me.

Despite this, the sector is reasonably big and i'm sure there will be plenty of firms that have a more professional culture, so I would recommend finding a position in an organisation which is more deserving of her talent and efforts. Whistleblowing, especially in a firm where the ill behaviour seems to be all-pervasive, is not recommended as it may cause problems in the future.

Yes, although she's doing a law degree and so probably wouldn't be working in a paralegal office as she is at the moment.

That being said, she still wants to get a good reference, which is pretty unlikely if you get a bunch of people in trouble. It's a tough spot to be in, really.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

To be honest, my advice would probably be to keep your head down and get on with your job, or look for another. It's not nice, it's not pleasant, but when you're trying to make a start in an industry as competitive as law, then you need all the friends you can get.

 

[richw]

Unfortunately too many people seem to think its ok because they think its banter.

A lot of banter I hear would have been bullying a few years ago, but now its ok because they call it banter.

A quiet word that its offending may do the job. If they are a close knit team that have been together a long time, they will know rightly or wrongly what they can get away with even if its wrong. They will have become oblivious to this if its been ongoing for a period of time, and may take a new person to the group to quietly point out the offence in their comments.

 

[yorkie]

If she thinks a 'quiet word' will work and has someone who can assist (as in table38's example) then go for that.

If not, then I'd get another job first and then report it.

 

[table38]

In my experience, there are often just one or two ringleaders, and the rest go along with it either out of habit or just to fit in.

If they are all from an older generation, it might just be they were brought up on a diet of Alf Garnett or even some Monty Python sketches, and may just need reminding that society has moved on and those attitudes are no longer acceptable.

Hope she can resolve it by the way. Maybe I'm a bit naïve, but I like to approach these things under the assumption that they can be resolved amicably.

And don't forget Hanlon's razor

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

 

[Greenback]

It's unacceptable, full stop. I've worked in a few places over the years, and whenever I've encountered anything that I'm not happy with, I tend to do the following (which one depends on the actual circumstances).

1. Ignore it and not get involved with it.
2. Mention that I find it unacceptable and inappropriate, and that I won't contribute to any conversation that include racist, homophobic or sexist remarks (or whatever it is that's unacceptable)
3. Speak to a well liked and respected senior member of staff, one that isn't involved int he so called banter, obviously.
4. Use humour to highlight how ridiculous they all are. which can be pretty difficult, but very successful where it works.

Sometimes, all of those strategies can be used, but like I said it all depends on the circumstances. The most important thing I've always believed is to stand up for your principles, and don't join in just because you want to be liked. That's what a lot of people do, and they are as guilty as the ringleaders.

In this case, I have a suspicion that the remarks being made are being done so deliberately, in order to provoke a negative reaction from the new employee. So whatever choice is made, I'd try and make sure emotion is kept out of it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's unacceptable, full stop. I've worked in a few places over the years, and whenever I've encountered anything that I'm not happy with, I tend to do the following (which one depends on the actual circumstances).

1. Ignore it and not get involved with it.
2. Mention that I find it unacceptable and inappropriate, and that I won't contribute to any conversation that include racist, homophobic or sexist remarks (or whatever it is that's unacceptable)
3. Speak to a well liked and respected senior member of staff, one that isn't involved int he so called banter, obviously.
4. Use humour to highlight how ridiculous they all are. which can be pretty difficult, but very successful where it works.

Sometimes, all of those strategies can be used, but like I said it all depends on the circumstances. The most important thing I've always believed is to stand up for your principles, and don't join in just because you want to be liked. That's what a lot of people do, and they are as guilty as the ringleaders.

In this case, I have a suspicion that the remarks being made are being done so deliberately, in order to provoke a negative reaction from the new employee. So whatever choice is made, I'd try and make sure emotion is kept out of it.

Thanks - I've been showing her the replies from the thread periodically, so I'll let you guys know if she does anything. She has told me she doesn't want to do anything until (unless) she manages to get a new job lined up, which could be difficult when she wants it to be law-related.

I'm not sure it's being done on purpose, though - she tends to pretend she's not listening when they talk about that sort of thing. The only time they involved her was when they were talking about "half caste". That they replied to her when she said it was unacceptable with "Well it doesn't offend me! I don't see the issue." shows the kind of attitude these people have: very self-centred and at times willfully ignorant. They're your typical "I'm proud to be un-PC" types.

 

[Panda]

Wow!! Only saw this now. Your girlfriend's colleagues are plainly breaking the law for a start - harassment under the Equality Act. It's as clear cut as that. The fact that you are on a forum asking about advice following remarks on her race, regardless of how playful it was, means that there it made her feel singled out.

If possible, she should try and break the cycle - have a word with their line manager, head of department or HR, depending on the workplace structure. It doesn't have to be a grievance, but just a word to make them aware of what is happening. If she speaks to someone in HR, they will definitely know that the problem is actually very serious.

I was harassed at my previous place of work, but I was in complete denial and didn't actually really realise it (same as your girlfriend, I downplayed it and put it down to office banter). I took the approach of just getting on with it and really, really, really wish now that I reported it. Only after I left and started my new job, I realised how bad the harassment really was as I had to attend training on the Equality Act as part of my induction. My previous manager thinks it's a joke to make fun of people based on their sexuality, race, pregnancy, disability - you name it, he's made fun of it. At the time I just thought it was a bit of fun, but it's not and I regret the fact that I never went to HR to try and break the cycle, because I know for a fact that he is still doing it to my ex-colleagues who are still there (and they also all downplayed it as just a bit of fun).

If I am ever in that situation again, I will immediately try to break the cycle by speaking to someone to try and get it to stop.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks - I've been showing her the replies from the thread periodically, so I'll let you guys know if she does anything. She has told me she doesn't want to do anything until (unless) she manages to get a new job lined up, which could be difficult when she wants it to be law-related.

I'm not sure it's being done on purpose, though - she tends to pretend she's not listening when they talk about that sort of thing. The only time they involved her was when they were talking about "half caste". That they replied to her when she said it was unacceptable with "Well it doesn't offend me! I don't see the issue." shows the kind of attitude these people have: very self-centred and at times willfully ignorant. They're your typical "I'm proud to be un-PC" types.

They are clearly unpleasant people at the very least. I'm sure your girlfriend doesn't want their friendship or acceptance, and I'd be tempted to tell them once and for all that if they don't stop with the racism etc, then I'll have no option but to make it a formal issue.

I myself wouldn't worry too much about not being taken seriously by senior people there. A law firm of all places should be more than aware of their responsibilities in this area.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I myself wouldn't worry too much about not being taken seriously by senior people there. A law firm of all places should be more than aware of their responsibilities in this area.

You mean one person's word against 12 others would be accepted as gospel in a court of law ? The allegations would then be turned back on the newcomer as a trouble maker wanting to make a name for themselves.
It depends what the aim of the person is - to go through the grief and make the point with the possibility that it will be dismissed and they would be unlikely to find employment in the same sector. Even if they win they same would probably apply as firms would be less likely to take someone on who has a 'history' of stirring it up.

 

[Greenback]

You mean one person's word against 12 others would be accepted as gospel in a court of law ? The allegations would then be turned back on the newcomer as a trouble maker wanting to make a name for themselves.

Not at all. What I'm saying is that if she goes to a senior member of staff, maybe a partner, then they should be aware of their legal responsibilities and at least give a sympathetic hearing tot he complaints.

It's more debatable what action would be taken as a result, but it should make her feel better through having raised the issue.

It depends what the aim of the person is - to go through the grief and make the point with the possibility that it will be dismissed and they would be unlikely to find employment in the same sector. Even if they win they same would probably apply as firms would be less likely to take someone on who has a 'history' of stirring it up.

I disagree. It sounds like she is going through plenty of grief already, and if it were me, I wouldn't really want to work for a law firm that would simply dismiss complaints of this nature and try and label the complainant as a trouble maker.

In my experience having had to deal with law firms over a period of seven years, it's far from being a closed shop where it would be difficult to find employment with another company because of something like this. In fact, some competing companies would be even more keen to employ a complainant who said they had been treated badly as a result of making complaints of racism or sexism.

 

[Crossover]

From what you have said, it does sound very much like the "banter" goes a bit beyond the realms of acceptability - don't get me wrong, every office has some sort of banter, including where I work, but nothing on that level!

 

[Greenback]

From what you have said, it does sound very much like the "banter" goes a bit beyond the realms of acceptability - don't get me wrong, every office has some sort of banter, including where I work, but nothing on that level!

Absolutely right. And if people didn't make a stand against what is unacceptable, then things will simply continue in the same way.

It's up to the individual to decide if they are uncomfortable enough to do something about it, or whether they let things go on and rely on someone else to do something at some other time.

My own view is that such behaviour should be challenged.

 

[swj99]

Probably not worth reporting it or complaining about it. If a complaint was made, then maybe people might be discliplined, sacked or moved. Or they might not. It depends on the management structure, and whether the person hearing the complaint takes it seriously. But in many cases it wouldn't really change anything. You'd just end up with the same people in a different place / situation with similar dynamics, attitudes conversation and banter You can't change who people are, what they laugh at or what they think, and personally, unless your girlfriend or someone else there is the target of direct harassment or abuse, I'd be reluctant to rock the boat. Some law firms are very difficult to get into and are a world unto themselves (although those in larger cities are slightly worse for that). By that I mean if a person's face doesn't fit for whatever reason, they will always be on the outside, looking in.

........so I nearly threw a rock through a Chinese restaurant on the way home haha! I'm so racist isn't that hilarious?!'........

They'll either eventually get over it or grow out of it, or get nicked for doing something stupid and immature like that. As long as your girlfriend recognises this and makes sure she's not around when it happens, she should be alright.
You meet weirdoes and lunatics in almost any workplace environment. Now please don't misundersrand me or think I'm suggesting you or she is overreacting to this, because I'm not. But in the scheme of things, realistically you can't change people, or what they think, or how they are. Some of them are very nice, decent people, but there are also some thoroughtly sick and unpleasant ones out there. The best you can hope for is to align yourself with the nicer ones who aren't like that, and try not to stress too much about things and the people you can't change.

Another consideration here is that by complaining, she could become their next target and if she's only there for a year and she gets on with them, why not just let them have their laughs and their opinions and just not get drawn into anything she's not comfortable with ?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Absolutely right. And if people didn't make a stand against what is unacceptable, then things will simply continue in the same way.


My own view is that such behaviour should be challenged.

Personally having to put up with what sounds like being subjected to a Roy Chubby Brown concert everyday (a crime against humanity in itself) would be something I would challenge but many people are not of the frame of mind or position to challenge it (as in wanting the 'quiet' life or needing the regular wage too much).

 

[Butts]

From what you have said, it does sound very much like the "banter" goes a bit beyond the realms of acceptability - don't get me wrong, every office has some sort of banter, including where I work, but nothing on that level!

Would you care to define that ?

I must say I am surprised that sort of behavior exists in a Law Firm

 

[Greenback]

Personally having to put up with what sounds like being subjected to a Roy Chubby Brown concert everyday (a crime against humanity in itself) would be something I would challenge but many people are not of the frame of mind or position to challenge it (as in wanting the 'quiet' life or needing the regular wage too much).

That's fair enough. All I can do is to give my opinion and advice based on the information provided, just as everyone can. It's entirely up to the individual concerned whether they choose to do anything, and I think it's good that they have received different opinions. It all helps to build up a bigger picture for them, I hope.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Personally having to put up with what sounds like being subjected to a Roy Chubby Brown concert everyday (a crime against humanity in itself) would be something I would challenge but many people are not of the frame of mind or position to challenge it (as in wanting the 'quiet' life or needing the regular wage too much).

This is exactly what the issue is. It's not always as easy as saying that they should confront someone, as it can be a very difficult thing to do.