Day Return purchased instead of Open Return

[rjxw99]

Hi -
on Saturday i bought what i thought was an open return from manchester to leeds. i have purchased this type of ticket for the reverse journey a number of times over the past two months with no issue (on top of the potentially thousands of tickets i have purchased over the last 15 years with 0 previous offences.)
On Sunday morning I made the return journey back to Manchester. My ticket didn't work at the barriers so i approached an inspector who issued me a PFN, along with explaining that he was going to note that it seemed like an honest mistake made by a nice lad and he said he would expect my appeal would be upheld. The total fee I owe as a result of this is £79. The difference between an open return and day return for this journey is £4.20. Obviously, i would paid that initially. I am not one to try and bend the rules over £4..
Before I appeal i just wanted to see if anyone would have any advice for me, anything important to mention or not mention, whether i admit it was my honest mistake or whether i try blame a slight variance in the ticket booking process on trainline that caused this (normally, the open return is auto selected but for some reason the day return was the default.)
Any help much appreciated. Cheers

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@rjxw99. Welcome to the forum. Not sure the circumstances you describe are such that one would expect a penalty fare appeal to be successful. (You being told it would likely be upheld, might just have been something said to defuse a potentially confrontational situation). However, if you can upload a copy of whatever PF paperwork you've been issued with, that could be helpful, as there may be technical irregularities apparent. Please be sure to cover up your name, address and any ID number that may be showing.

 

[fandroid]

(first part of original post deleted)

The "nice lad" waffle will butter no parsnips in the PF appeal process and it'll function in the same way as it does even for "naughty lads".

 

[greatkingrat]

Where were you stopped? Leeds or Manchester?

 

[Watershed]

Can you clarify whether you had already travelled at the point you were issued with a Penalty Fare? In other words, did this happen in Leeds before you manage to get through the barriers?

If you had not yet travelled, then there would be no basis for issuing a PF. Leeds station is not a Compulsory Ticket Area so you can't be issued with a PF merely for being on the station premises without a valid ticket.

Unfortunately, the member of staff saying that they thought your appeal would succeed basically means nothing. They don't decide appeals, and if they really thought you hadn't done anything wrong, they had the discretion to decide not to issue you with the PF.

Inspectors really shouldn't be making unfounded assurances like this. They say it to defuse the situation, but that's not a good enough excuse when you are actively misleading people as to the prospects of succeeding with an appeal.

Aside from the above, there may be grounds for appealing based on technical non-compliance in the wording or placement of the signage at the station. However, this often requires multiple appeals to have success.

 

[agk2126]

It's a bit much when an inspector PF's someone who hasn't even gone through a ticket gate.

Sounds like OP had already "made the return journey back to Manchester" and the barriers wouldn't let them out. Right? Somehow OP made it through barriers at Leeds (perhaps they were simply open?) and didn't encounter a guard on the train.

There's no way a Penalty Fare would have been issued outside a fare controlled area.

 

[rjxw99]

Yeah this is correct. I had gotten onto a train at Headingley in Leeds where there were no barriers, and had to change at Leeds station - so I was already within the stations controlled area (right phrasing??). So the only barrier I encountered was the exit at Manchester Vic, which was only when I understood the ticket wasn't valid for that journey..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2025 ==

Sounds like OP had already "made the return journey back to Manchester" and the barriers wouldn't let them out. Right? Somehow OP made it through barriers at Leeds (perhaps they were simply open?) and didn't encounter a guard on the train.

There's no way a Penalty Fare would have been issued outside a fare controlled area.

Yeah this is correct. I had gotten onto a train at Headingley in Leeds where there were no barriers, and had to change at Leeds station - so I was already within the stations controlled area (right phrasing??). So the only barrier I encountered was the exit at Manchester Vic, which was only when I understood the ticket wasn't valid for that journey..

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I had gotten onto a train at Headingley in Leeds where there were no barriers, and had to change at Leeds station

Is a Manchester->Leeds ticket ever actually valid at Headingley?

 

[Djgr]

Is a Manchester->Leeds ticket ever actually valid at Headingley?

Is the OP using the word "Leeds" loosely?

 

[agk2126]

Easy to buy the wrong type of return ticket, and I understand this is frustrating. This does seem like a textbook example of what Penalty Fares are for. Apparent honest mistakes. No prosecution or expensive out-of-court settlement. Assuming the PF was issued correctly, with no errors or other irregularities, you will probably end up needing to pay it.

Also a bit (I'd say very!) distasteful for staff to reassure passengers that an appeal will probably succeed (we've heard of this as an optimistic de-escalation tactic), but likely doesn't invalidate the PF in an appeal. It's possible that, in the moment, OP could have respectfully asked something to the effect of "if you expect my appeal would be upheld, why don't you just open the barriers and not issue me a penalty fare," but that (a) would have had a real escalation/backfire risk and (b) is now water under the bridge.

 

[30907]

On a Sunday the correct fare to charge should be the Offpeak Day Single so £28.20 not £29.40. Is this worth arguing?

Incidentally and OT, having two fares with identical (+/- 1 minute) peak restrictions and a differential of £1.30 (<5%) seems bound to cause aggro.

 

[AlterEgo]

On a Sunday the correct fare to charge should be the Offpeak Day Single so £28.20 not £29.40. Is this worth arguing?

Incidentally and OT, having two fares with identical (+/- 1 minute) peak restrictions and a differential of £1.30 (<5%) seems bound to cause aggro.

Have we seen the notice yet? Has it appeared and been deleted?

 

[furlong]

Please post a copy of the complete notice (with personal details covered up) and full details of the ticket you held.

- What is the precise amount of the notice? I see no basis for a £79 charge (unless you rounded that figure up instead of down).

Which train exactly did you catch from Leeds to Manchester?

 

[Gloster]

Was the ticket you bought from Manchester to Leeds or Manchester to Headingley? If it was the former did you have tickets from Leeds to Headingley and return?

 

[DeverseSam]

As per the poll below, a lot of such confusion arises from the trainline app

What is an "Open Return"?

There's a thread in Disputes at the moment where the OP has been sold a combination of day returns labelled by TrainPal as an "Open Return". Trainline similarly lists day return tickets when you select "Open Return" and this causes a lot of grief in my experience. By contrast, TfW's app will...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[185143]

(first part of original post deleted)

The "nice lad" waffle will butter no parsnips in the PF appeal process and it'll function in the same way as it does even for "naughty lads".

It may well not do. But I suspect if there are potential discretionary grounds for upholding an appeal, someone would be more likely to have their appeal upheld if the inspector has noted that the passenger was compliant and decent, as opposed to "a complete and utter **** who swore repeatedly and was a pain to deal with".

 

[rjxw99]

Is a Manchester->Leeds ticket ever actually valid at Headingley?

My ticket was a day ticket from Manchester victoria to Headingley (and back) so yes would always change at Leeds

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My ticket was a day ticket from Manchester victoria to Headingley (and back) so yes would always change at Leeds

Thanks for so clarifying. Can you re-confirm just how much is being asked for on the PFN? Is it exactly £79.00 / £129.00? Or some very near amount?

 

[AlterEgo]

Please upload a copy of the notice. It is very important we see it (with your details removed) because it is likely your only grounds here will be around any deficiency with the notice.

 

[rjxw99]

Is the OP using the word "Leeds" loosely?

On a Sunday the correct fare to charge should be the Offpeak Day Single so £28.20 not £29.40. Is this worth arguing?

Incidentally and OT, having two fares with identical (+/- 1 minute) peak restrictions and a differential of £1.30 (<5%) seems bound to cause aggro.

Have we seen the notice yet? Has it appeared and been deleted?

Please post a copy of the complete notice (with personal details covered up) and full details of the ticket you held.

- What is the precise amount of the notice? I see no basis for a £79 charge (unless you rounded that figure up instead of down).

Which train exactly did you catch from Leeds to Manchester?

Was the ticket you bought from Manchester to Leeds or Manchester to Headingley? If it was the former did you have tickets from Leeds to Headingley and return?

Notice and ticket attached.. please help guys £79 total for this seems ridiculous

 

[AlterEgo]

The notice is unlawful. It has been issued from the passenger's ticket origin when it legally applies only to the train upon which they arrived. The "boarding station" in this case is Leeds. It must be struck out because it was filled in improperly.

 

[furlong]

From the time, I would assume this is a TPE train (Redcar) not a Northern one.
If so, the correct fare was £28.20 (+£50/£100), so you should appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations as its amount was incorrect (as it was not the right fare at the time you travelled from the station at which you boarded the train, Leeds).
Refs 16(3)(a), 9(1A), 9(2A), 9(3)(a), 9(6)(b).

 

[rjxw99]

The notice is unlawful. It has been issued from the passenger's ticket origin when it legally applies only to the train upon which they arrived. The "boarding station" in this case is Leeds. It must be struck out because it was filled in improperly.

I got on the train at Headingley, though there was no barriers/scanners, and my ticket did not get scanned on the train. So there'd be no evidence of my scanning on at Leeds as I didn't have to go through the barriers (nor at Headingley for that matter). Might this impact your suggestion?

From the time, I would assume this is a TPE train (Redcar) not a Northern one.
If so, the correct fare was £28.20 (+£50/£100), so you should appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations as its amount was incorrect (as it was not the right fare at the time you travelled from the station at which you boarded the train, Leeds).
Refs 16(3)(a), 9(1A), 9(2A), 9(3)(a), 9(6)(b).

As far as I can see, the price of a TPE train ticket from Leeds to Manchester on a Sunday is £19.70 if bought as an advanced single, or £28.20 as an off-peak day single. An anytime day single is £29.40, so yes you're right it appears he hasn't used the right fare for a Sunday.
Is this enough to get my ticket thrown out?

 

[AlterEgo]

I got on the train at Headingley, though there was no barriers/scanners, and my ticket did not get scanned on the train. So there'd be no evidence of my scanning on at Leeds as I didn't have to go through the barriers (nor at Headingley for that matter). Might this impact your suggestion?

No. Penalty Fares are train specific and only apply from the boarding station of the train where you get caught. That is, you could only be penalty fared from Leeds, not Headingley. The train you got off at Manchester Victoria hadn't called at Headingley, you'd changed trains.

They have the wrong origin. It should say Leeds.

 

[rjxw99]

No. Penalty Fares are train specific and only apply from the boarding station of the train where you get caught. That is, you could only be penalty fared from Leeds, not Headingley. The train you got off at Manchester Victoria hadn't called at Headingley, you'd changed trains.

They have the wrong origin. It should say Leeds.

Okay got it thank you. Likely enough to get my FPN voided? (And maybe coupled with a potentially incorrect fare amount?)

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay got it thank you. Likely enough to get my FPN voided? (And maybe coupled with a potentially incorrect fare amount?)

Yes, use both grounds, they are equally against the regulations.

 

[WesternLancer]

Okay got it thank you. Likely enough to get my FPN voided? (And maybe coupled with a potentially incorrect fare amount?)

Might I suggest that when you have drafted your appeal you put the wording up here before you submit it. That way the experts giving advice on what to do can check it before you send it and suggest any amends.

Be mindful not to miss the appeal deadline of course.

 

[rjxw99]

Yes, use both grounds, they are equally against the regulations.

Might I suggest that when you have drafted your appeal you put the wording up here before you submit it. That way the experts giving advice on what to do can check it before you send it and suggest any amends.

Be mindful not to miss the appeal deadline of course.

Thoughts?

I am writing to formally appeal Penalty Fare Notice XYZ, issued on Sunday 16th November at 13:19. I travelled from Headingley to Manchester Victoria, changing at Leeds, using a day-return ticket from Manchester Victoria to Headingley purchased on Saturday 15th, rather than an off-peak return, due to my misunderstanding of the two ticket types and lack of clarity on the app.
The Penalty Fare was issued upon my arrival in Manchester Victoria, after disembarking the TFN Leeds → Manchester Victoria train.

I am appealing on two grounds:

1. Incorrect Origin Used: The notice was calculated based on my ticket origin (Headingley), whereas under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, the penalty should apply only to the train upon which I was found without a valid ticket (Leeds → Manchester Victoria). Using Headingley as the origin does not comply with the regulations.
2. The fare added to the penalty was based on an Anytime Single, but my journey was on a Sunday, which is off-peak all day. The correct fare for an Off-peak day single, appropriate for that time and journey for Leeds → Manchester Victoria, is £28.20, not £29.40. I have attached evidence from National Rail showing the correct off-peak fare. Refs 16(3)(a), 9(1A), 9(2A), 9(3)(a), 9(6)(b).

Given the above, I respectfully request that this Penalty Fare be cancelled as it was not charged in accordance with the regulations.

Thank you for considering my appeal. Please confirm receipt and advise on the next steps.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thoughts?

I am writing to formally appeal Penalty Fare Notice NTLPFNxxxxxxxx, issued on Sunday 16th November at 13:19. I travelled from Headingley to Manchester Victoria, changing at Leeds, using a day-return ticket from Manchester Victoria to Headingley purchased on Saturday 15th, rather than an off-peak return, due to my misunderstanding of the two ticket types and lack of clarity on the app.
The Penalty Fare was issued upon my arrival in Manchester Victoria, after disembarking the TFN Leeds → Manchester Victoria train.

I am appealing on two grounds:

1. Incorrect Origin Used: The notice was calculated based on my ticket origin (Headingley), whereas under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, the penalty should apply only to the train upon which I was found without a valid ticket (Leeds → Manchester Victoria). Using Headingley as the origin does not comply with the regulations.
2. The fare added to the penalty was based on an Anytime Single, but my journey was on a Sunday, which is off-peak all day. The correct fare for an Off-peak day single, appropriate for that time and journey for Leeds → Manchester Victoria, is £28.20, not £29.40. I have attached evidence from National Rail showing the correct off-peak fare. Refs 16(3)(a), 9(1A), 9(2A), 9(3)(a), 9(6)(b).

Given the above, I respectfully request that this Penalty Fare be cancelled as it was not charged in accordance with the regulations.

Thank you for considering my appeal. Please confirm receipt and advise on the next steps.

Initial thoughts.

You’ve rather given them a reason to reject your appeal in first para (‘misunderstanding’). Risks them not reading the rest. So I suspect best to edit that. Ie assessor thinks : passenger misunderstood ticket validity, ticket wasn’t valid, penalty fare is appropriate

Just say you are appealing because you believe the penalty fare was not validly issued in accordance with the appropriate requirements or some such.

You may want to remove the ref number from this thread (keep it in what you send of course)

Don’t use abbreviations eg TFN (write it in full)

I’m sure others will have good suggestions on tweaks.

 

[sheff1]

Thoughts

I agree with WesternLancer that the first paragraph is, at least, changed. Might be best to delete it entirely.

Start your appeal by clearly stating that you are appealing the Penalty Fare because it has not been issued in accordance with the regulations on two counts.
Splitting the paragraph references from the regulations as appropriate to the two separate regulation breaches would make things even clearer.