Day out on class 442

[387star]

I had my first sample of a refurbished class 442 today from Brighton to East Croydon. I am not quite sure where the colour scheme arose inside the train but presume it is similar to the 460s. I was surprised the lighting hadn't been replaced? Was quite dim.

The ride was as good as always and I think the 442s have found a useful home here although perhaps not on the Gatwick Express. It appears all Gatwick branding has been removed in favour of large type 'express' branding so not sure if this will confuse customers more or less.

At Brighton station I notices a shoddy class 319/2 in Southern livery looking like it hadn't seen a cleaner in months. I do not understand why the unit hasn't been repainted either seeing as the interior had been refurbished. These trains have been lucky to recieve two consecutive refurbishments yet still manage to look grotty!

Many 319s seem to suffer from window etching something which seems to have been stamped out with the new era of trains.

Btw didn't see a single 460 when is the last scheduled run?

 

[ACE1888]

Always liked the '442's, classy looking units

 

[387star]

Yes I do think Brighton was crying out for an Inter-City train and the 442 sure fits the bill!

I aimed to sample a refreshed 319 coming back be it a minor job (/0) or near enough the full works (/4) but the train had a fault which could not be rectified and so was cancelled

 

[Daimler]

I do feel that the refurbishment of the 442s wasn't as good as it could have been, though - it feels very much 'done on the cheap', and in my opinion makes the trains look more dated internally than they were before...

Still good trains, of course!

 

[387star]

Yes they did feel rather dated but it might be the lighting combined with the old fasdhioned looking carpet and upholstery. The buttons to open the interior doors wern't that obvious either! The seats had quite a curved shape perhaps designed to support the back better. Reminded me of Chapman seats. I didn't check to see if they have power points don't think they do nor do the seat tables have much space

 

[junglejames]

Yes they did feel rather dated but it might be the lighting combined with the old fasdhioned looking carpet and upholstery. The buttons to open the interior doors wern't that obvious either! The seats had quite a curved shape perhaps designed to support the back better. Reminded me of Chapman seats. I didn't check to see if they have power points don't think they do nor do the seat tables have much space

As said, fantastic units, but the refurb was a waste. Would have been better keeping them as they were. They had nicer seats, and nicer colours.
Still, cant get away from the fact they are brilliant units though.

I would never have got rid of them from SWT. Much nicer than the 444s in my opinion. More comfortable, and a nicer ride. As good as 444s are ride quality wise, the 442s just pip them i think.

Still, Weymouths loss is Brightons gain. Just think they sshould be on something longer than London to Brighton.

 

[swt_passenger]

At Brighton station I notices a shoddy class 319/2 in Southern livery looking like it hadn't seen a cleaner in months. I do not understand why the unit hasn't been repainted either seeing as the interior had been refurbished.

Not much point in external repaints with new stock arriving soon.

 

[387star]

Thought no new stock till 2018 as has been put back?

Regarding 444s I was sceptical at first but find the 444s to be a very worthy replacement.

The compartments on a 442 would have become non-standard, there is presumably no real demand for buffets on such SWT services these days (private companies respond to market demand) and there was a need for more seats

I was worried the seats would be too hard but whilst firm are actually perfectly fine for the journey so well done SWT and Siemens.

 

[ushawk]

I like the 442's - makes a change to using them to London rather than a 377 and i think they are a lot more comfortable myself.

Not totally sure about the Express branding but seeing as they only operate express services now (Gatwick and Brighton - and not including the return workings to/from Eastbourne) i guess it fits.

With the 460's, i did see one in service last Thursday and i also saw one with all Gatwick Express branding removed in the sidings south of Gatwick, again on Thursday.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm not a big fan of any version of the Desiro. Hard seats, virtually no air movement inside, ride problems (unless that's just the seats) and the loss of anything that marks the South Western out as a main line. There are some ways to make the trains liveable, but carrying a cushion and a Japanese fan around with you looks decidedly suspect, so I've taken to using XC services (yes Voyagers) and travelling via Reading.

Still, at least the old Wessexes have a new life and a new home. One day, I might actually get to travel on them again, it's just a case of finding an excuse. BTW, next time you do so, take a compass and sit in the motorcoach, it's fascinating.

 

[387star]

No air movement? Can't say I've experienced this. The 444 I got to Bournemouth was very quiet and smooth

 

[LE Greys]

No air movement? Can't say I've experienced this. The 444 I got to Bournemouth was very quiet and smooth

Well, I do tend to have the heating off and the vents open in midwinter in cars. I'd have the windows open if the driver would let me. I find a complete lack of air movement to be stifling and oppressive, and that's what 444s (and 450s and 360s) are like inside. You can only get fresh air by standing in a gangway connection. Airliners, road coaches and even 365s have little air blowers above the seats. Why not have them as standard on all modern trains?

 

[387star]

I will have to compare a 377 and 444 to see! At least the air con usually works at any rate.

Another question: When did SWT abandon the attractive montages of trees etc on the 442s and I think also the old slam door trains had them painted on to the vestibule ends. Is there no space for them on the new stock? In first class they were yellow and I think the 170s maybe had them too?

 

[thefab444]

I'm not a big fan of any version of the Desiro. Hard seats, virtually no air movement inside

There's no air movement inside a 442 with broken airconditioning (that'll be most of them then). Even when it works the airconditioning is far from perfect.

Still, at least the old Wessexes have a new life and a new home. One day, I might actually get to travel on them again, it's just a case of finding an excuse.

They are nothing special nowadays, the seats are no more comfortable than a 170 or 444. All the "special" features have been stripped out, except the interesting ride quality in the motor coach of course!

 

[LE Greys]

There's no air movement inside a 442 with broken airconditioning (that'll be most of them then). Even when it works the airconditioning is far from perfect.



They are nothing special nowadays, the seats are no more comfortable than a 170 or 444. All the "special" features have been stripped out, except the interesting ride quality in the motor coach of course!

And the noise! I love d.c. motors, and those old REP traction motors are the best.

 

[junglejames]

There's no air movement inside a 442 with broken airconditioning (that'll be most of them then). Even when it works the airconditioning is far from perfect.



They are nothing special nowadays, the seats are no more comfortable than a 170 or 444. All the "special" features have been stripped out, except the interesting ride quality in the motor coach of course!

Nothing special nowadays? What apart from having arguably the best ride quality seen down south. In fact, it beats most trains full stop.

Admittedly the refurb made them worse inside, but they are still more comfortable than a 444. Im with LE Greys in the fact I find seats in all Desiros to be far far too hard. Most desiros come well down in my list of comfortable trains. In fact, LMs desiros come bottom.
The only thing 444s have going for them is the good ride quality.

 

[thefab444]

Well, the standard class seats aren't much better than the astroturf 377s they replaced, and not a patch on the original seats. They are also partial to losing time due to long station dwells. The ride quality is okay, apart from in the motor coach, where rather stupidly, first class has been located.

Given that SWT would have almost certainly followed through a similar refurbishment if they had decided to keep the fleet, I don't think that we're any worse off with 444s, especially as 442s weren't suited to stopping runs, particularly in anything other than perfect conditions. Also bear in mind that there wouldn't have been enough units to operate the half hourly Weymouth service, so they may well have been transferred back to the Portsmouth line (and, one would hope, have been fitted with 3+2 seating ).

Although the cushions on the refurbished 442s may look soft, they are no more spongy than on a 444. Apart from the interior lighting, and if you care for that sort of thing the "thrash", there's very little to chose between the two fleets. The ride quality may be better on the 442, but the acceleration is a bit slow to say the least!

 

[junglejames]

Well, the standard class seats aren't much better than the astroturf 377s they replaced, and not a patch on the original seats. They are also partial to losing time due to long station dwells. The ride quality is okay, apart from in the motor coach, where rather stupidly, first class has been located.

Given that SWT would have almost certainly followed through a similar refurbishment if they had decided to keep the fleet, I don't think that we're any worse off with 444s, especially as 442s weren't suited to stopping runs, particularly in anything other than perfect conditions. Also bear in mind that there wouldn't have been enough units to operate the half hourly Weymouth service, so they may well have been transferred back to the Portsmouth line (and, one would hope, have been fitted with 3+2 seating ).

Although the cushions on the refurbished 442s may look soft, they are no more spongy than on a 444. Apart from the interior lighting, and if you care for that sort of thing the "thrash", there's very little to chose between the two fleets. The ride quality may be better on the 442, but the acceleration is a bit slow to say the least!

Oh i still think there is a lot between 442s and 444s. To me the 442s are still a lot lot more comfortable. I cant stand the comfort of the 444s. 444s are hard. 442s do have some sponge there.
They may not have the acceleration of a 444. But they could still cmplete London to Southampton in under 1hr 15. I dont think the timetables are any quicker now.

Id have kept 442s on fast Weymouths, and 444s on the slower service.

 

[thefab444]

We'll have to disagree then, the seats are pretty much the same to me, except the 444's have a better table (aside from the silly latch thing) and the armrests are much higher and more useful.

Id have kept 442s on fast Weymouths, and 444s on the slower service.

That would've caused a diagramming headache and a nightmare during disruption, unless the two classes were made compatible (unlikely). You could run the half hourly Portsmouth fast services as ten coaches requiring 18 units, leaving 4 spare for additional peak services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thought no new stock till 2018 as has been put back?

No, 2018 is the agreed completion date for the entire project. The new stock is to be delivered gradually BY 2018 - some of it is required to cascade 319s into electrified areas in 2014 and also to allow for increased 12 car running after Key Output 1, and to return the 377/5s to SN.

If you think about the practicalities you couldn't build a new train fleet of 1200 vehicles and then hide them away somewhere until a future date...

 

[junglejames]

We'll have to disagree then, the seats are pretty much the same to me, except the 444's have a better table (aside from the silly latch thing) and the armrests are much higher and more useful.



That would've caused a diagramming headache and a nightmare during disruption, unless the two classes were made compatible (unlikely). You could run the half hourly Portsmouth fast services as ten coaches requiring 18 units, leaving 4 spare for additional peak services.

But 442s always used to run to Weymouth so it could still happen. No problem.
To be honest, the 444s should just have been ordered as replacement for the slam doors. Replacing the 442s as well was a waste of fantastic units. Thankfully i dont have to use that route very often, and when i did use it frequently, we still had the slam doors and 442s.

Yep, we will agree to disagree on comfort. I couldnt imagine going all the way from London to Weymouth now. But i would quite happily go up and down the Brighton Mainline all day on the 442s. Hey thats an idea!! I may have to one day.

 

[Daimler]

They are nothing special nowadays, the seats are no more comfortable than a 170 or 444. All the "special" features have been stripped out, except the interesting ride quality in the motor coach of course!

Indeed - I was very disappointed when I first travelled in one of the refurbished ones. To be honest, I much prefer the interior ambience of the 444s now, with the brighter, cleaner lighting and less claustrophobic seat arrangement.

That's not to say the 442s weren't wonderful back when they ran on the Weymouth line - with their first class compartments and luxurious seating, I used to love travelling on them.

That said, 444s really are very good trains, and are (at least very nearly) a worthy successor.

 

[swt_passenger]

But 442s always used to run to Weymouth so it could still happen. No problem.
To be honest, the 444s should just have been ordered as replacement for the slam doors. Replacing the 442s as well was a waste of fantastic units. Thankfully i dont have to use that route very often, and when i did use it frequently, we still had the slam doors and 442s.

The 444s were initially ordered as slam door unit replacements. It was a later decision to replace the 442s, once the 444s were all in service.

Another point is that the Weymouth service was only hourly when the 442s ran it. The diagramming of the 2 tph service with splitting and joining in the peaks at Bournemouth may well need more units than just the 442s - that could be a diagramming issue if 442s and 444s were used together.

 

[junglejames]

The 444s were initially ordered as slam door unit replacements. It was a later decision to replace the 442s, once the 444s were all in service.

Another point is that the Weymouth service was only hourly when the 442s ran it. The diagramming of the 2 tph service with splitting and joining in the peaks at Bournemouth may well need more units than just the 442s - that could be a diagramming issue if 442s and 444s were used together.

That could cause a bit of a problem then. Never realised Weymouth had an increased service.

 

[Christopher125]

If anything, it was the withdrawn 458's that 'replaced' the Wessex units as they were offered a very good deal by the leasing company to retain them - this meant they could cascade the 450's which in turn released enough 444's for Bournemouth services.

Chris

 

[junglejames]

Indeed - I was very disappointed when I first travelled in one of the refurbished ones. To be honest, I much prefer the interior ambience of the 444s now, with the brighter, cleaner lighting and less claustrophobic seat arrangement.

That's not to say the 442s weren't wonderful back when they ran on the Weymouth line - with their first class compartments and luxurious seating, I used to love travelling on them.

That said, 444s really are very good trains, and are (at least very nearly) a worthy successor.

Thats the problem. The refurb really did ruin them inside, no doubt about it.
I still find them preferable to the 444s though, despite the bright airy interior the 444s have. I just cant stand the seats on the 444s.

Theres something else i cant quite put my finger on with 444s and other desiros though. They seem naked inside. I cant quite work it out. Perhaps its the plain blank white walls, with just the basic rectangles cut out for windows. The 442s have more about them, and dont feel naked. Im not sure. All i know is the 442s feel as if they have more about them, and so that adds to me prefering them.
I know, its strange, but hey.

 

[Helvellyn]

But 442s always used to run to Weymouth so it could still happen. No problem.
To be honest, the 444s should just have been ordered as replacement for the slam doors. Replacing the 442s as well was a waste of fantastic units. Thankfully i dont have to use that route very often, and when i did use it frequently, we still had the slam doors and 442s.

Yep, we will agree to disagree on comfort. I couldnt imagine going all the way from London to Weymouth now. But i would quite happily go up and down the Brighton Mainline all day on the 442s. Hey thats an idea!! I may have to one day.

As swt_passenger says, Weymouth got an increased service under the 2007 franchise, with two trains per hour. Previously it was one Waterloo to Weymouth per hour, with a Brockenhurst to Wareham stopper. The latter was withdrawn and replaced by extending the hourly Waterloo to Poole to Waterloo. Finally, the hourly Waterloo to Southampton was extended to Poole, picking up stops off the fast services (plus some off the Brockenhurst to Wareham service).

Prior to that time there wasn't quite enough 442s to operate all the services, and a peak Poole to Waterloo service ran with 2x444s, then sat in Clapham Yard before another set came back down in the evening. The Brockenhurst-Wareham shuttles were 450 operated.

The 2007 franchise required SWT to increase capacity around the network, and one way of doing this was to keep the 458s - which were cheaper to lease from Porterbrook than the Angel Trains owned 442s.

The idea of SWT keeping the 442s for the fast 1Pxx Waterloo - Portsmouth services is interesting, but the problem would have been where to maintain them. Bournemouth was always the home of the 442s, and would there have been room to upgrade Fratton to maintain the fleet? In terms of a refurbishment I think it'd have been comprehensive. The First Class compartments would have gone and possibly the original Standard Class seats too. A FGW Mark 3 style refurbishment would have increased the seating capacity, especially as with no end luggage stacks you'd get 4 more seats than in a Mark 3 TS. The DTSOL and two TSOLs could have had identical layouts; move the disabled loo to the rebuilt DTCOL, and rip the buffet/snug out to give more seats in the MBSO. You'd have had a unit seating more than a 444, but still not offering as many seats as on a 12-car 450. And whether people occupy those middle seats on the 3 side or not, the franchise requirement is based on the number of seats offered!

 

[thefab444]

As swt_passenger says, Weymouth got an increased service under the 2007 franchise, with two trains per hour. Previously it was one Waterloo to Weymouth per hour, with a Brockenhurst to Wareham stopper. The latter was withdrawn and replaced by extending the hourly Waterloo to Poole to Waterloo. Finally, the hourly Waterloo to Southampton was extended to Poole, picking up stops off the fast services (plus some off the Brockenhurst to Wareham service).

I think you mean the hourly Waterloo to Poole was extended to Weymouth!

Basically, the pre-Dec 2007 Waterloo - Weymouth service had stops at Wool, Moreton and Upwey replaced with Branksome and Parkstone, so the actual speed increase wasn't much, in fact in 1996 the timing was 2h34 so four minutes faster than now!

The Waterloo - Poole semi-fast service was extended to Weymouth, with stops at Totton, Ashurst New Forest, Branksome and Parkstone replaced by Hamworthy, Holton Heath, Wareham, Wool, Moreton, Dorchester South and Upwey.

The Waterloo - Southampton stopping service was extended to Poole, calling additionally at Shawford (after the Basingstoke - Brighton service was cut), Totton, Ashurst New Forest, Brockenhurst and then all stations. Originally this service was planned to terminate at Bournemouth, and I recall there was some speculation of extending it to Wareham as well but insufficient stock put a stop to this.

Prior to that time there wasn't quite enough 442s to operate all the services, and a peak Poole to Waterloo service ran with 2x444s, then sat in Clapham Yard before another set came back down in the evening. The Brockenhurst-Wareham shuttles were 450 operated.

I seem to recall the Brockenhurst - Wareham shuttles were rather oddly operated by two 450 diagrams and one 444 diagram.

 

[Drsatan]

I seem to recall the Brockenhurst - Wareham shuttles were rather oddly operated by two 450 diagrams and one 444 diagram.

Yes, on several occasions, I remember a 444 waiting at platform 1 at Brockenhurst awaiting departure with the all-stations service to Wareham! I have no idea why a 444 was considered necessary for that service given that a 450 would have sufficed; the 444 would have ideally been rostered for a Portsmouth line diagram!