Dawlish avoiding route?

[Ashley Hill]

Moderator note: split from

Storm to close line at Dawlish evening 23rd to Saturday afternoon

Is that a public timetabled bus, or RRS? I was watching the webcam most of yesterday evening (better than going in person!) and there was one wave which produced spray that went off the top of the screen. That must be around 30 m; quite exceptional. The wind-borne spray hit the camera!

www.railforums.co.uk

How long before the press start calling for the Southern line to be reopened?

 

[martin butler]

How long before the press start calling for the Southern line to be reopened?

That would depend on how long any disruption lasts, The sea defences seem to have done their work, but I question the sense of directing waves upwards, because the wind still carried the waves towards the line and over the line,
As regards the Southern Route, whilst i fully support its full reopening, there are still problems that might have affected that, even if it was available,

 

[Ashley Hill]

As regards the Southern Route, whilst i fully support its full reopening, there are still problems that might have affected that, even if it was available,

Interestingly, despite the wind both the Okehampton and Gunnislake lines have remained open.

 

[MartinC]

Oh mate that comment sends me into orbit and ‘just saying’ is another

If I read one more ridiculous post about reopening the Tavistock route or that new wall didn’t last long. Give me strength!!!!!

Would it be "ridiculous" to ask why you describe the suggestion of reopening in this manner? I understand that in the days of the "real" GWR consideration was being given to the vulnerability of the seaside route and yet BR (and the Government) decided to remove the better protected route. Nobody seems to have mentioned the, far from ridiculous, cost to the economy of Cornwall and West Devon every time the route is suspended

 

[The Planner]

Are we really going to do this one again?

 

[Snow1964]

Would it be "ridiculous" to ask why you describe the suggestion of reopening in this manner? I understand that in the days of the "real" GWR consideration was being given to the vulnerability of the seaside route and yet BR (and the Government) decided to remove the better protected route. Nobody seems to have mentioned the, far from ridiculous, cost to the economy of Cornwall and West Devon every time the route is suspended

Bit more than consideration, an inland avoiding line was proposed in 1933, Parliamentary Powers were gained in Great Western Railway Additional Powers Act 1936, an additional section to extend the cut off to point near Exminster was then added in 1937. Work actually started in 1939, but was stopped soon after due to war breaking out, and never resumed.

What this has demonstrated is that having a single vulnerable route to Cornwall, south and west Devon is never going to be reliable.

 

[Requeststop]

It's a sort of Groundhog Day effect. In the 72 years I've been living and since the Beeching closure of the Okehampton/Tavistock route, every time there is a huge storm that hits and damages the Dawlish-Teignmouth wall, everyone from the Somerset Border to Lands End shouts about the cost to the south-west economy each time the line is closed due to weather and climate related incidents. The rest of the country puts their collective hands to their ears, especially those in the south east. The Midlanders and Northerners wring their hands and cry about all the investment going to London and the south east and say nothing at all when things such as the electrification towards the south west is cut at Newbury and Chippenham. Decisions of such idiocy. By the way, the sea wall restoration was not only for the railway. It was also for the town of Dawlish and the properties along the sea wall and to help stop further erosion of the cliffs in the area too.
Only Cameron seemed to try to understand the need for the Tavistock route to be re-opened. But like everything else, pertinent to the south west, it was dumped. I'll not see it re-opened in my lifetime.

 

[Benjwri]

Would it be "ridiculous" to ask why you describe the suggestion of reopening in this manner? I understand that in the days of the "real" GWR consideration was being given to the vulnerability of the seaside route and yet BR (and the Government) decided to remove the better protected route. Nobody seems to have mentioned the, far from ridiculous, cost to the economy of Cornwall and West Devon every time the route is suspended

The reality is that the BCR on an alternative route has always been very, very poor. Even if it was built there are serious concerns it would face its own resilience challenges from water flow in the valley. The realistic answer is sadly just that there are far more beneficial schemes across the country and in Cornwall. (Sorry sent before the mod note)

 

[Ashley Hill]

How long before the press start calling for the Southern line to be reopened?

I originally put this comment in another thread that mentioned the damage to the sea wall at Dawlish. My comment was a bit tongue in cheek as I could imagine the media turning up at Dawlish, then interviewing a random councillor saying the Government should reopen the Southern route.
I certainly didn’t want to reopen this debate here as it has been done to death.

 

[Topological]

Aside from the Dawlish area, are there any sections of the line that are particularly problematic?

Although I doubt anyone would, the most obvious solution would appear to be to single the main line and driving a tunnel inland a little to take the mainline. That way the local service can still run towards Paignton and the mainline can find the optimal route between Exeter and Plymouth.

I dont know the geography well enough, but the road does not go via Okehampton.

 

[dk1]

Would it be "ridiculous" to ask why you describe the suggestion of reopening in this manner? I understand that in the days of the "real" GWR consideration was being given to the vulnerability of the seaside route and yet BR (and the Government) decided to remove the better protected route. Nobody seems to have mentioned the, far from ridiculous, cost to the economy of Cornwall and West Devon every time the route is suspended

Because they bang on about this every single time there’s a weather related incident along the sea wall. We all know in a perfect world it would be still there but it’s not. Most haven’t a clue what it entails let alone the cost. We can add to the others who live in a hard done by world who seem to think everywhere else except the South West gets investment. Even comments on there regarding HS2.

 

[A S Leib]

What's the plan to continue providing the relatively good service to Exeter to the 150,000 people in Paignton, Torquay and Newton Abbot, and the 30,000 in Dawlish itself and Teignmouth, if Dawlish were lost? If the answer is building a line slightly inland but still serving Dawlish, how useful would an Okehampton route be?

 

[Uncle Buck]

is it correct that the GWR’s proposed line was only to avoid Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish and Teignmouth, and that those stations were still to remain open?

Couldn’t local services continue to run on the Dawlish line while expresses took the inland route?

Regional politicians carping about London’s share of infrastructure spending is tedious, but surely if taxpayers in Devon and Cornwall are paying for HS2, Crossrail and rolling electrification they are entitled to something for their own region in return- a few miles of unelectrified track to keep the entire area’s railways open.

 

[6Gman]

Are we really going to do this one again?

Yep!

 

[dk1]

Yep!

Sleep well, If you can.

 

[30907]

Interestingly, despite the wind both the Okehampton and Gunnislake lines have remained open.

Neither of them is subject to storm surges AFAIK

 

[Bevan Price]

The real question is - with ever-increasing storm ferocity, how long will the seafronts at Dawlish & Teignmouth survive ?
As we know from parts of the East Coast - the sea always wins.......

 

[AngusH]

In case people haven't seen it, here is a link to a useful bbc article
summarising the options with maps(from 2014):

Storm-hit Dawlish: Where could a second rail line run?

After the main rail line was destroyed at Dawlish, where might a secondary route into the South West run?

www.bbc.co.uk

Three options described

1) Dartmoor route - extend Okehampton to connect to Gunislake

2) Teign Valley - rebuild old branch line route

3) Dawlish internal route - new build route options cutting off the coast



For option 3, I think the straight line distance is something like 15 km/9 miles?

 

[Harpo]

surely if taxpayers in Devon and Cornwall are paying for HS2, Crossrail and rolling electrification they are entitled to something for their own region in return

A Barnett Formula for Kernow to replace the EU investment it threw away in the Brexit vote?

 

[irish_rail]

Regional politicians carping about London’s share of infrastructure spending is tedious, but surely if taxpayers in Devon and Cornwall are paying for HS2, Crossrail and rolling electrification they are entitled to something for their own region in return- a few miles of unelectrified track to keep the entire area’s rarailway open.

Indeed. With a combined population of about 1 million people west of Dawlish, surely there is justification for some sort of contingency route. It would increase business confidence, investment and tourism. In a world where the current Gov believes a third route between Liverpool and Manchester is justified (and that ignores routes such as changing at Kirkby), then I think some sort of Dawlish cut off is increasingly justified. The journey time savings would bring Plymouth comfortably under 3 hours from London on express services, which would be a big boost to the economy of a deprived city/area. Plymouth has just as much right as its northern equivalents to prosper.

 

[martin butler]

My view is this, Weather patterns are only going to get worse, and it's not if, but when the line will need further strengthening, or a new route found that avoids the section of route that's affected, Strategically, It makes no sence not having a secondary route, that should the Dawlish route need to close , either for weather related problems, or maintence then theres another route that still enables services to operate, abet at reduced frequency between Plymouth and Exeter, thense beyond, and thee most straightdoreward one would be to re-open the closed inland route, as part of the Devon metro service , but with maybe a couple of through trains to London each day, via Basingstoke, and Reading,

 

[Harlequinuk]

Didnt Avanti prove a point with the Settle<> Carlisle diversion ; it works, and once the week 1 problems were actioned, it worked well. Given weather patterns are changing, having an option in the South west is prudent.

 

[Trainguy34]

2) Teign Valley - rebuild old branch line route

Option 2 would be best imo as the alignments mostly still there (Apart from a Sainsbury's in Exeter and a small section of the A38), while keeping Newton Abbot and Paignton linked if Dawlish fails.

 

[alf]

It is not a coincidence that there is no regular rail freight west of Exeter, no railway contribution taking 42 ton lorries off jammed West Country roads.

How could Tesco run a daily freight service on the Dawlish line with no back up route like they have for Shap & Beattock ?
No company would invest in rail sidings & loading facilities west of Exeter knowing the increasing ferocity of the sea around Dawlish.

Devon & Cornwall deserve a trustworthy inland route, ideally the Dawlish internal route, or rejoining Meldon to Bere Ferrers, a few miles of existing trackbed apart from two almost life expired buildings in Tavistock

Most other nations with a can do attitude would do it immediately.
Our leaders should not be given an excuse to do nothing by the UK’s tiny number of armchair warriors.
How sensible it would be to see daily freights running past my grandparents old farm near Crediton sweeping lorries off clogged West Country roads.

 

[MarkyT]

It is not a coincidence that there is no regular rail freight west of Exeter, no railway contribution taking 42 ton lorries off jammed West Country roads.

How could Tesco run a daily freight service on the Dawlish line with no back up route like they have for Shap & Beattock ?

Daily service can't be guaranteed through winter, and a closure could last several days, or even weeks or months in the worst case.

No company would invest in rail sidings & loading facilities west of Exeter knowing the increasing ferocity of the sea around Dawlish.

Interestingly, no new freight terminals have appeared around Exeter itself in recent decades, apart from short-lived bulk loading points. Before a cash crisis a few years ago, Sainsbury was planning a rail-connected distribution depot next to the LSWR in a new development near the airport. They pulled out, and the site is now Lidl's regional hub, without a siding. Maybe a regular train to the west by Tesco or similar really needs another terminal further west, as well as Exeter, to really save the lorry miles and justify a trainload in total. That might tip the balance in also serving an Exeter terminal.

Devon & Cornwall deserve a trustworthy inland route, ideally the Dawlish internal route, or rejoining Meldon to Bere Ferrers, a few miles of existing trackbed apart from two almost life expired buildings in Tavistock

The LSWR route is also more freight-friendly, being gently graded compared to the Devon banks, for which some heavy trains need to be split in the loaded direction between Plymouth and Exeter. The two portions are then worked sequentially by the same locomotive, which shuttles back as a light engine. Usually, the same train can work back empty in one portion.

 

[yorksrob]

Let's see how many Establishment tropes we can tick off on the "anything but rail" bingo card:

-"You can't build a line just for diversions" - It wouldn't be.

-"It won't be useful for diversions if its single track" - nonsense as the line to Salisbury is very useful for them.

-"It's through a rural area so it won't attract any passengers" unlike all the many existing busy lines through rural areas

-"It won't make any money" very few of our passenger lines do.

-"There's no parallel bus service so there's no demand" or "there is a parallel bus service so there won't be any demand" take your pick whichever one they come out with.

Etc etc ......

 

[renegademaster]

I don't know the geography around dawlish, but could more sea defences be the solution? Dump some big rocks in front of seawall to be the first line of the defence. That's what I've seen on the south coast. It won't eliminate shutdowns but should make them less frequent. And probably cheaper than a new line.

 

[30907]

I don't know the geography around dawlish, but could more sea defences be the solution? Dump some big rocks in front of seawall to be the first line of the defence. That's what I've seen on the south coast. It won't eliminate shutdowns but should make them less frequent. And probably cheaper than a new line.

Given that the sea defences held, and the problems of an exceptional storm* were debris (collapsed boundary wall etc) and spray, I'm not sure that's necessary.

*BBC reporting from Slapton-on-Sea says residents were comparing it with 1979.

 

[Harpers Tate]

a) The perhaps important point here is that whenever the naturally at risk Dawlish area is encumbered, a huge swathe of the rail network is severed from the rest with absolutely no alternative. It's my view that this alone is sufficient justification. We have relied on operating "the Railway" on an almost zero contingency basis for years*, and frankly - it's not good enough.
b) Whilst there may be separate weather related risks with a hypothetical Bere Alston > Okehpampton resurrection, the probability of the two lines becoming blocked at the same time is, I'd suggest, very remote, and unless that happens then each provides contingency for the other.
c) meanwhile, a fire in a tunnel on the Transpennine Route has closed the Leeds - Manchester "normal" route. But trains are still running, diverted.

===============
* in far too many respects; rationalisation of points and crossovers, rationalisation of signalling, insufficient rolling stock and personnel; the list goes on.

 

[Topological]

If you were to build a Dawlish avoider, how much additional line would be needed? Not knowing the geography well, would something like just in land from the West edge of Teignmouth, to where the line leaves the Exe at Starcross work?

I assume that would be cheaper than upgrading the line all the way from Plymouth to Exeter via Okehampton?

For GWR and CrossCountry there would not be any changes to calling patterns going via a new route a little inland.