Daughter using expired railcard

[Rheafifi83]

Hi. My Daughter was approached on 23rd July at Wolverhampton to show her railcard and she hadn't realised it was expired. She was spoken to on the day and told she MAY receive a £100 fine which we were preparing for. She has today received an email saying looking at her ticket records it is a case for fraud, high fines and possible prosecution. She is in floods of tears and to be honest and absolute mess.

Is this just a standard letter to make people take action? My Daughter is very much a stickler for rules and now she think's she is going to end up in prison and her mental health has seriously gone down hill.

She has replied saying it was an unintentional mistake and we are in the process of looking through emails etc to see when we paid for the railcard/when it expired etc. I am hoping they will just respond with a fine or something? It was just a mistake. Surely they don't go all the way to prosecution? My Daughter is 18 for context.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome to the forum. Please tell your daughter she won't be going to prison, it doesn't happen.

Could you show us a redacted copy of their letter and your daughter's redacted reply please?

 

[John R]

Firstly, rest assured, your daughter will NOT be going to prison for this. Even persistent deliberate fare evaders rarely if ever go to prison - certainly not an 18 year old who accidentally let her railcard expire.

Hopefully her response was polite and apologetic - the usual result is an offer of an out of court settlement, based on the "fare(s) avoided" and an admin fee, which is typically around £150.

"Fares avoided" are usually based on Anytime Single fares for each single journey undertaken, with no offset for the fare actually paid. It will be worth her going through the purchase history of her account (if she presented an online purchased ticket when stopped) as it is quite likely that the rail company will do the same investigation and include those fares in any settlement offer. So it may cost her something (or maybe Mum), but that should be the only consequence.

 

[Rheafifi83]

Hi, welcome to the forum. Please tell your daughter she won't be going to prison, it doesn't happen.

Could you show us a redacted copy of their letter and your daughter's redacted reply please?

Thanks for your help. Yes I'll try and attach the letter. For now she sent a "placating" email while her Dad finds when he paid/ renewed etc. It just said "Thank you for your email regarding the ticket I purchased on 23rd July 2025. This was an unintentional mistake as I was under the impression my railcard was still in date as I used it every day for college. My Dad renews this for me and he is in the process of finding some evidence to send to you".

 

[Rheafifi83]

Firstly, rest assured, your daughter will NOT be going to prison for this. Even persistent deliberate fare evaders rarely if ever go to prison - certainly not an 18 year old who accidentally let her railcard expire.

Hopefully her response was polite and apologetic - the usual result is an offer of an out of court settlement, based on the "fare(s) avoided" and an admin fee, which is typically around £150.

"Fares avoided" are usually based on Anytime Single fares for each single journey undertaken, with no offset for the fare actually paid. It will be worth her going through the purchase history of her account (if she presented an online purchased ticket when stopped) as it is quite likely that the rail company will do the same investigation and include those fares in any settlement offer. So it may cost her something (or maybe Mum), but that should be the only consequence.

Thank you for your help. That's fine if it's just a fine we need to pay. Being prosecuted and having a criminal record would just break her. When I get the evidence, we will send another email with more detail/apologies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Hi, welcome to the forum. Please tell your daughter she won't be going to prison, it doesn't happen.

Could you show us a redacted copy of their letter and your daughter's redacted reply please?

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on 23rd July 2025 when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.



You were interviewed under caution.



Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.

Please respond within 7 days from the date of this email to avoid further escalation.

 

[notmyrealname]

The forum experts should be here later with detailed advice for you. Could you also show us your daughter's reply please?

If you have any more correspondence from the rail company (which one is it?), it's best to show us the letter and your draft reply so people here can get your letter as good as it can be.

 

[Haywain]

the rail company (whic one is it?),

OP has posted:

West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously

 

[Rheafifi83]

The forum experts should be here later with detailed advice for you. Could you also show us your daughter's reply please?

If you have any more correspondence from the rail company (whic one is it?), it's best to show us the letter and your draft reply so people here can get your letter as good as it can be.

"Thank you for your email regarding the ticket I purchased on 23rd July 2025. This was an unintentional mistake as I was under the impression my railcard was still in date as I used it every day for college. My Dad renews this for me and he is in the process of finding some evidence to send to you". This was just to respond with something while we gather any evidence. If we can find any :/ It West Midlands Railway

 

[Rheafifi83]

The forum experts should be here later with detailed advice for you. Could you also show us your daughter's reply please?

If you have any more correspondence from the rail company (whic one is it?), it's best to show us the letter and your draft reply so people here can get your letter as good as it can be.

Sorry. Still trying to work out how to reply properly on here. the letter content is below:

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on 23rd July 2025 when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket with a railcard attached and were unable to present your railcard, therefore you would not have been eligible for the discounted rate.


You were interviewed under caution.


Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.



At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.

Please respond within 7 days from the date of this email to avoid further escalation.

 

[notmyrealname]

OP has posted:

Thank you. I was having trouble reading the image.

 

[WesternLancer]

"Thank you for your email regarding the ticket I purchased on 23rd July 2025. This was an unintentional mistake as I was under the impression my railcard was still in date as I used it every day for college. My Dad renews this for me and he is in the process of finding some evidence to send to you". This was just to respond with something while we gather any evidence. If we can find any :/ It West Midlands Railway

This won't do any great harm hopefully - but I suspect it's better to get your 'ducks in a row' before sending them anything at all and then sending a clear reply of the sort that is usually recommended on here in these scenarios (plenty of examples)

ie basically
- apologise
- explain genuine oversight Railcard expiry
- if true state no intention to deliberately evade correct fare
- learned from this and won't do it again
- taken steps to avoid it in future (eg set a diary alert for renewal date of railcard)
- anxious to settle the matter without the need for court action by paying any fare owed - this is the vital thing to say but of course isn't included in the initial reply sent for reasons I appreciate but who know if the railway staff will realise that...

The risk of having sent a reply already is that their sausage machine thinks that is the full / final 'mitigation response' - so in order to get things moved on I would start drafting up the full reply ASAP so it can be sent as soon after what has already been sent as is possible.

eg
Dear Sir / Madam

Your Ref:

Further to the acknowledgment response I sent on xxx to your e-mail I am now replying more fully about the incident.

Then cover the points above without it getting too long etc, even if some of the points are covered in what has just been sent


Probably a good idea for you to post the draft reply here before sending it to them in case people here have useful suggestion to make

Finally - the date it expired is mainly of use to you so you can check how much travel might have been undertaken inadvertently without valid railcard but discounted tickets - as they might ask for correct payment of all those fares - but they have not asked about that yet so no need to get into that in your reply at this stage - but doing this check will help you prepare yourself for what sum they may demand. It does not sound like you / she dispute the Railcard was expired at the time of travel? (it must be valid when you step on the train, for the ticket to be a valid ticket - you can't buy a new one later that day and get a let off etc)


Albeit different circumstances and different train operator but see this thread for some similarities, and see post #17 for an example of the the sort of response that could be sent (albeit case not resolved yet)

What should I expect? Unknowingly used an expired rail card for 3 months.

Hi, I understand posts like these are flooding the forum but I'm a little bit stressed out and would hope someone could offer me some clarity. Today I was commuting into the office when I got my ticket checked, which I thought was no problem I had my ticket and a 16-25 rail card on the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Rheafifi83]

This won't do any great harm hopefully - but I suspect it's better to get your 'ducks in a row' before sending them anything at all and then sending a clear reply of the sort that is usually recommended on here in these scenarios (plenty of examples)

ie basically
- apologise
- explain genuine oversight Railcard expiry
- no intention to deliberately evade correct fare
- learned from this and won't do it again
- taken steps to avoid it in future (eg set a diary alert for renewal date of railcard)
- anxious to settle the matter without the need for court action by paying any fare owed - this is the vital thing to say but of course isn't included in the initial reply sent for reasons I appreciate but who know if the railway staff will realise that...

The risk of having sent a reply already is that their sausage machine thinks this is the mitigation response - so in order to get things moved on I would start drafting up the full reply ASAP

eg
Dear Sir / Madam

Your Ref:

Further to the acknowledgment response I sent on xxx to your e-mail I am now replying more fully about the incident.

Then cover the points above without it getting too long etc


Probably a good idea for you to post the draft reply here before sending it to them in case people here have useful suggestion to make

Finally - the date it expired is mainly of use to you so you can check how much travel might have been undertaken inadvertently without valid railcard but discounted tickets - they migth ask for payment of all those fares - but they have not asked about that yet so no need to get into that in your reply at this stage. It does not sound like you / she dispute the Railcard was expired at the time of travel? (it must be valid when you step on the train, for the ticket to be a valid ticket - you can't buy a new one later that day and get a let off etc)

Thank you so much. Yes in hindsight, I should have searched for a forum/help first and then responded but we all panicked and thought responding ASAP to acknowledge the email and to put my Daughters mind at rest while we look through emails etc would be best for now. My partner is at work so he couldn't look at anything right now but am looking to send a follow up email tomorrow - I will as you suggested put it on here before I send. I really appreciate the help and advice from everyone

 

[AlterEgo]

I cannot add to the good advice already given. Once all of this has settled you may wish to complain to your MP about this. I encourage you to do so.

Train companies are huffing the last fumes of their ability to bully young people with threats of prison for minor indiscretions like forgetting to pay £35 for a railcard, while splashing in their own fetid puddle of scandals and professional incompetence relating to their prosecution powers. Some form of change is likely to come soon.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much. Yes in hindsight, I should have searched for a forum/help first and then responded but we all panicked and thought responding ASAP to acknowledge the email and to put my Daughters mind at rest while we look through emails etc would be best for now. My partner is at work so he couldn't look at anything right now but am looking to send a follow up email tomorrow - I will as you suggested put it on here before I send. I really appreciate the help and advice from everyone

Good plan

Like I say I don't think it's vital your partner can tell you when the railcard was bought etc but it's def worth checking when possible (presumably your daughter knows the expiry date now, and would have known if it was a 1 year or 3 year Railcard?)

If you don't dispute the Railcard had in fact expired on the day in question there isn't an awful lot of point in including any details about when it expired as the Inspector ought to have noted that when your daughter was stopped anyway (ie they know the date already - I assume...), though if you do have the date I suppose you could mention it in the reply.

Note - I just Edited my prev post and posted a link to another recent thread with an example response for you to see

 

[Rheafifi83]

Good plan

Like I say I don't think it's vital your partner can tell you when the railcard was bought etc but it's def worth checking when possible (presumably your daughter knows the expiry date now, and would have known if it was a 1 year or 3 year Railcard?)

If you don't dispute the Railcard had in fact expired on the day in question there isn't an awful lot of point in including any details about when it expired as the Inspector ought to have noted that when your daughter was stopped anyway (ie they know the date already - I assume...), though if you do have the date I suppose you could mention it in the reply.

Note - I just Edited my prev post and posted a link to another recent thread with an example response for you to see

That's great. Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

I cannot add to the good advice already given. Once all of this has settled you may wish to complain to your MP about this. I encourage you to do so.

Train companies are huffing the last fumes of their ability to bully young people with threats of prison for minor indiscretions like forgetting to pay £35 for a railcard, while splashing in their own fetid puddle of scandals and professional incompetence relating to their prosecution powers. Some form of change is likely to come soon.

Thanks for this. I do work for a Local Authority but not the one this concerns. Will look into it though

 

[WesternLancer]

The reason for knowing the railcard start and end dates of this and previous railcards is that what can happen next is that WM Trains will get data from on line ticket purchases (eg Trainline) and look for tickets discounted by a railcard and seek funds for any travel undertaken at the time with a discount to which your daughter was not entitled by virtue of the railcard having been expired. They often put the onus on you to prove she had a railcard for some of the time (there is seemingly no central database they can consult). They may even do this in future after you believe you have settled this existing matter - so it's important you partner finds evidence of past railcards if they can, and you collate that for your own future reference and be prepared to keep it for some time.

But if this happens people here will help advise you - and it probably wont happen at this stage so take the process one step at a time - as of course you are doing.

Not wishing to alarm you - just to help you understand what can possibly happen

 

[Rheafifi83]

The reason for knowing the railcard start and end dates of this and previous railcards is that what can happen next is that WM Trains will get data from on line ticket purchases (eg Trainline) and look for tickets discounted by a railcard and seek funds for any travel undertaken at the time with a discount to which your daughter was not entitled by virtue of the railcard having been expired. They often put the onus on you to prove she had a railcard for some of the time (there is seemingly no central database they can consult). They may even do this in future after you believe you have settled this existing matter - so it's important you partner finds evidence of past railcards if they can, and you collate that for your own future reference and be prepared to keep it for some time.

But if this happens people here will help advise you - and it probably wont happen at this stage so take the process one step at a time - as of course you are doing.

Not wishing to alarm you - just to help you understand what can possibly happen

No that's fine. It says in the letter they have looked at her records. I have pulled some points from your previous post to form the follow up response, so that was really helpful. Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Update - My partner has just found that he did buy our Daughter a railcard in January which was the 18-21 railcard as she was turning 18 in the February. So now it looks like she did have the railcard in place but had selected the wrong one possibly, as the other one was the 16-17 saver.

 

[WesternLancer]

No that's fine. It says in the letter they have looked at her records. I have pulled some points from your previous post to form the follow up response, so that was really helpful. Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Update - My partner has just found that he did buy our Daughter a railcard in January which was the 18-21 railcard as she was turning 18 in the February. So now it looks like she did have the railcard in place but had selected the wrong one possibly, as the other one was the 16-17 saver.

There isn’t an 18-21 railcard…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==

Update - My partner has just found that he did buy our Daughter a railcard in January which was the 18-21 railcard as she was turning 18 in the February. So now it looks like she did have the railcard in place but had selected the wrong one possibly, as the other one was the 16-17 saver.

Thanks - this is very important to get clear with your daughter - even if it was an unintentional mistake. She should check her ticket buying records carefully to see what discount has been applied

I suspect the one she has is the 16-25 Railcard - which gives a third off the fare

However, the 16-17 Saver gives a more generous 50% discount IIRC - and as a result it's a favourite for some deliberate evaders to use to get the bigger discount. So that can be a red flag to a ticket inspector for deliberate evasion, and if the passenger then can't produce one it will get referred to the back office for investigation. This could be what has happened

I am not accusing her of being a fare evader, and lots of people do come on here saying they must have selected 16-17 saver railcard 'by mistake' - so I'm sure that can actually happen. But your daughter does need to be honest with you, and herself, about this.

Having said all that advice here would not be to deliberately own up to being a fare evader, but advice would also be not to lie about it and not to pretend something that wasn't true - because the risk of them finding out is always there and that is the best way to kybosh you chances of any out of court settlement...

So I say this because the wording of the reply needs to be carefully written if there is any chance this might not be a mistake....

If it wasn't really a mistake - don't say it was one. Instead apologise for travelling with the wrong Railcard discount (but avoid telling them how that came to happen), for example

The main things the railway want is to know you understand it is important to pay the correct fare, pay them what you owe, ensure you don't make the same mistake again. Convincing them of that is the route to not being prosecuted.

Anyway - good luck and you'll get the help you need here.

 

[Rheafifi83]

There isn’t an 18-21 railcard…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2025 ==


Thanks - this is very important to get clear with your daughter - even if it was an unintentional mistake. She should check her ticket buying records carefully to see what discount has been applied

I suspect the one she has is the 16-25 Railcard - which gives a third off the fare

However, the 16-17 Saver gives a more generous 50% discount IIRC - and as a result it's a favourite for some deliberate evaders to use to get the bigger discount. So that can be a red flag to a ticket inspector for deliberate evasion, and if the passenger then can't produce one it will get referred to the back office for investigation. This could be what has happened

I am not accusing her of being a fare evader, and lots of people do come on here saying they must have selected 16-17 saver railcard 'by mistake' - so I'm sure that can actually happen. But your daughter does need to be honest with you, and herself, about this.

Having said all that advice here would not be to deliberately own up to being a fare evader, but advice would also be not to lie about it and not to pretend something that wasn't true - because the risk of them finding out is always there and that is the best way to kybosh you chances of any out of court settlement...

So I say this because the wording of the reply needs to be carefully written if there is any chance this might not be a mistake....

If it wasn't really a mistake - don't say it was one. Instead apologise for travelling with the wrong Railcard discount (but avoid telling them how that came to happen), for example

The main things the railway want is to know you understand it is important to pay the correct fare, pay them what you owe, ensure you don't make the same mistake again. Convincing them of that is the route to not being prosecuted.

Anyway - good luck and you'll get the help you need here.

Thanks so much. I do believe it's a genuine mistake, my Daughter is very honest and can't keep secrets. I think it's just her being naive when doing her bookings and not checking. Thanks again. I really appreciate you taking the time to help

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks so much. I do believe it's a genuine mistake, my Daughter is very honest and can't keep secrets. I think it's just her being naive when doing her bookings and not checking. Thanks again. I really appreciate you taking the time to help

That’s good. So long as she understands what went wrong and why they were now sending her the sort of letter they did.

 

[John R]

Thanks so much. I do believe it's a genuine mistake, my Daughter is very honest and can't keep secrets. I think it's just her being naive when doing her bookings and not checking. Thanks again. I really appreciate you taking the time to help

I have a slight doubt about this, in that in your very first post you said:-

My Daughter was approached on 23rd July at Wolverhampton to show her railcard and she hadn't realised it was expired.

Now we don't know exactly what the conversation was between her and the official, but I doubt he said "Your railcard has expired" but more likely "You've chosen the wrong railcard, which conveniently gives you a bigger discount". And moreover in her first response she said:-

This was an unintentional mistake as I was under the impression my railcard was still in date as I used it every day for college.

when that wasn't the problem at all, and the rail company will know that.

So I think it's important that any subsequent response is clear that the wrong railcard was chosen, and that is what you are apologising for. I'm afraid they may well draw the conclusion that it was deliberate, but from cases we see, I think they will still offer a settlement if they believe you are being honest.

 

[Rheafifi83]

Good morning. This is the draft response. May need a few tweaks as I need to clarify whether my Daughter couldn't find her railcard or the inspector said it was invalid as she is away at present so we have been talking over text but she is home later today. She flaps alot, hates confrontation or doing anything wrong so she probably panicked when she was approached.


Good morning/afternoon,

Further to the acknowledgment response I sent on 19.08.25 to your e-mail I am now replying more fully about the incident.

My Dad who renews my railcards for me has found my 16-25 card is still active – please see attached. This was purchased in October 2024 and is due to expire in October 2025.

I can only apologise for my naivety and deep regret for not checking the validity of my railcard before purchasing tickets.. I wrongly assumed my 16-25 card replaced my 16-17 card so continued to use the one stored in my phone.

When the ticket inspector told me the ticket/railcard was invalid, I just took what they said as I have never been in this situation before and travel on the trains frequently as my main form of transport.

Please be assured I had no intention to evade paying the correct fare. I fully accept that it was my responsibility to ensure that my railcard was valid before travelling, and I am very sorry for the inconvenience this has caused. I assure you that I have learned from this experience and will take greater care in the future to ensure my travel documents are always valid.

I am anxious to get this resolved as soon as possible and I would be most grateful if you would kindly consider resolving the matter without the need for court action. I am happy to pay any fare that I owe along with any costs that might have arisen looking into this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

I have a slight doubt about this, in that in your very first post you said:-



Now we don't know exactly what the conversation was between her and the official, but I doubt he said "Your railcard has expired" but more likely "You've chosen the wrong railcard, which conveniently gives you a bigger discount". And moreover in her first response she said:-



when that wasn't the problem at all, and the rail company will know that.

So I think it's important that any subsequent response is clear that the wrong railcard was chosen, and that is what you are apologising for. I'm afraid they may well draw the conclusion that it was deliberate, but from cases we see, I think they will still offer a settlement if they believe you are being honest.

Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

I have a slight doubt about this, in that in your very first post you said:-



Now we don't know exactly what the conversation was between her and the official, but I doubt he said "Your railcard has expired" but more likely "You've chosen the wrong railcard, which conveniently gives you a bigger discount". And moreover in her first response she said:-



when that wasn't the problem at all, and the rail company will know that.

So I think it's important that any subsequent response is clear that the wrong railcard was chosen, and that is what you are apologising for. I'm afraid they may well draw the conclusion that it was deliberate, but from cases we see, I think they will still offer a settlement if they believe you are being honest.

Sorry just read this again. It was me who formulated her first response, she just sent it. Her mental health is suffering right now so she can't think straight so it's me who has made the error in the wording. As I said before in hindsight I should have waited but wanted to acknowledge the receipt of the email, hoping to send the follow up email today. I appreciate your input.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good morning. This is the draft response. May need a few tweaks as I need to clarify whether my Daughter couldn't find her railcard or the inspector said it was invalid as she is away at present so we have been talking over text but she is home later today. She flaps alot, hates confrontation or doing anything wrong so she probably panicked when she was approached.


Good morning/afternoon,

Further to the acknowledgment response I sent on 19.08.25 to your e-mail I am now replying more fully about the incident.

My Dad who renews my railcards for me has found my 16-25 card is still active – please see attached. This was purchased in October 2024 and is due to expire in October 2025.

I can only apologise for my naivety and deep regret for not checking the validity of my railcard before purchasing tickets.. I wrongly assumed my 16-25 card replaced my 16-17 card so continued to use the one stored in my phone.

When the ticket inspector told me the ticket/railcard was invalid, I just took what they said as I have never been in this situation before and travel on the trains frequently as my main form of transport.

Please be assured I had no intention to evade paying the correct fare. I fully accept that it was my responsibility to ensure that my railcard was valid before travelling, and I am very sorry for the inconvenience this has caused. I assure you that I have learned from this experience and will take greater care in the future to ensure my travel documents are always valid.

I am anxious to get this resolved as soon as possible and I would be most grateful if you would kindly consider resolving the matter without the need for court action. I am happy to pay any fare that I owe along with any costs that might have arisen looking into this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==


Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==


Sorry just read this again. It was me who formulated her first response, she just sent it. Her mental health is suffering right now so she can't think straight so it's me who has made the error in the wording. As I said before in hindsight I should have waited but wanted to acknowledge the receipt of the email, hoping to send the follow up email today. I appreciate your input.

Just turning to your draft here

This bit doesn't make sense to me really and might serve to confuse them I fear, you need to avoid that

My Dad who renews my railcards for me has found my 16-25 card is still active – please see attached. This was purchased in October 2024 and is due to expire in October 2025.

I can only apologise for my naivety and deep regret for not checking the validity of my railcard before purchasing tickets.. I wrongly assumed my 16-25 card replaced my 16-17 card so continued to use the one stored in my phone.

So if I understand correctly (and I'll spend more time reading this than the overworked investigator at WM Trains who will have hundreds of these to plough through remember) it seems your daughter DID and still does have a valid 16-25 Railcard (expires in October 2025) - so presumably there is no issue with that.

So what did she do? presumably buy a ticket with a 16-17 Saver discount - a railcard that she does not have, but once did have. Is that correct? The whole issue hinges on this I suspect.

I think you must be 100% accurate in this reply so you need to satisfy yourself of this - don't necessarily rely on what your daughter thinks happened IMHO but get a copy of the ticket or booking details off your daughter for that incident so you can check it - if it's not clear to you then upload it here so we can check for you.

If what i am suggesting might have happened is correct then that bit of the draft needs to be replaced with something more like:

"I hold a valid 16-25 Railcard which expires on xx October 2025 - please see attached. However due to an oversight on my part I failed to update the details on my phone's Trainline app when this replaced my 16-17 Saver Railcard. This was drawn to my attention by the Inspector. I want to clearly apologise and take responsibility for making this mistake. I appreciate that it was my responsibility to ensure the correct Railcard discount was applied to the ticket."

Further to this
If this has been happening with all the tickets she has bought from the date of the new 16-25 railcard in October 2024 you need to prepare your self for them to seek payment for new tickets of all the tickets bought with the wrong discount since October 2024. Typically they won't be asking for the difference between the 50% discount and the 33% discount - they are likely to want money for completely new tickets at the Anytime Single fare rate. They might do this as part of any settlement they offer or they might come back and ask her for it later - this could add up.

After this reply is sent in you should sit down with your daughter and go through the records of her ticket buying on the app and try to make a list to prepare for this, as the railway company might issue demands for sums and sometimes they get this wrong, so you need to compile your own evidence in case you need it - they will typically correct mistakes if they think you are being honest and co-operating with them.

And I suspect the bank of mum is going to need to prepare to issue a loan....

 

[Rheafifi83]

Just turning to your draft here

This bit doesn't make sense to me really and might serve to confuse them I fear, you need to avoid that



So if I understand correctly (and I'll spend more time reading this than the overworked investigator at WM Trains who will have hundreds of these to plough through remember) it seems your daughter DID and still does have a valid 16-25 Railcard (expires in October 2025) - so presumably there is no issue with that.

So what did she do? presumably buy a ticket with a 16-17 Saver discount - a railcard that she does not have, but once did have. Is that correct? The whole issue hinges on this I suspect.

I think you must be 100% accurate in this reply so you need to satisfy yourself of this - don't necessarily rely on what your daughter thinks happened IMHO but get a copy of the ticket or booking details off your daughter for that incident so you can check it - if it's not clear to you then upload it here so we can check for you.

If what i am suggesting might have happened is correct then that bit of the draft needs to be replaced with something more like:

"I hold a valid 16-25 Railcard which expires on xx October 2025 - please see attached. However due to an oversight on my part I failed to update the details on my phone's Trainline app when this replaced my 16-17 Saver Railcard. This was drawn to my attention by the Inspector. I want to clearly apologise and take responsibility for making this mistake. I appreciate that it was my responsibility to ensure the correct Railcard discount was applied to the ticket."

Further to this
If this has been happening with all the tickets she has bought from the date of the new 16-25 railcard in October 2024 you need to prepare your self for them to seek payment for new tickets of all the tickets bought with the wrong discount since October 2024. Typically they won't be asking for the difference between the 50% discount and the 33% discount - they are likely to want money for completely new tickets at the Anytime Single fare rate. They might do this as part of any settlement they offer or they might come back and ask her for it later - this could add up.

After this reply is sent in you should sit down with your daughter and go through the records of her ticket buying on the app and try to make a list to prepare for this, as the railway company might issue demands for sums and sometimes they get this wrong, so you need to compile your own evidence in case you need it - they will typically correct mistakes if they think you are being honest and co-operating with them.

And I suspect the bank of mum is going to need to prepare to issue a loan....

So what did she do? presumably buy a ticket with a 16-17 Saver discount - a railcard that she does not have, but once did have. Is that correct? The whole issue hinges on this I suspect.

Yes. Exactly that. I have amended the response to reflect what you have said and I understand what you mean now looking at it. Again, I really appreciate the time spent helping me, I would not have known how to tackle this alone. Yea definitely bank of Mum will be issuing the loan but she has just got a little job so she can pay it back

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

Just turning to your draft here

This bit doesn't make sense to me really and might serve to confuse them I fear, you need to avoid that



So if I understand correctly (and I'll spend more time reading this than the overworked investigator at WM Trains who will have hundreds of these to plough through remember) it seems your daughter DID and still does have a valid 16-25 Railcard (expires in October 2025) - so presumably there is no issue with that.

So what did she do? presumably buy a ticket with a 16-17 Saver discount - a railcard that she does not have, but once did have. Is that correct? The whole issue hinges on this I suspect.

I think you must be 100% accurate in this reply so you need to satisfy yourself of this - don't necessarily rely on what your daughter thinks happened IMHO but get a copy of the ticket or booking details off your daughter for that incident so you can check it - if it's not clear to you then upload it here so we can check for you.

If what i am suggesting might have happened is correct then that bit of the draft needs to be replaced with something more like:

"I hold a valid 16-25 Railcard which expires on xx October 2025 - please see attached. However due to an oversight on my part I failed to update the details on my phone's Trainline app when this replaced my 16-17 Saver Railcard. This was drawn to my attention by the Inspector. I want to clearly apologise and take responsibility for making this mistake. I appreciate that it was my responsibility to ensure the correct Railcard discount was applied to the ticket."

Further to this
If this has been happening with all the tickets she has bought from the date of the new 16-25 railcard in October 2024 you need to prepare your self for them to seek payment for new tickets of all the tickets bought with the wrong discount since October 2024. Typically they won't be asking for the difference between the 50% discount and the 33% discount - they are likely to want money for completely new tickets at the Anytime Single fare rate. They might do this as part of any settlement they offer or they might come back and ask her for it later - this could add up.

After this reply is sent in you should sit down with your daughter and go through the records of her ticket buying on the app and try to make a list to prepare for this, as the railway company might issue demands for sums and sometimes they get this wrong, so you need to compile your own evidence in case you need it - they will typically correct mistakes if they think you are being honest and co-operating with them.

And I suspect the bank of mum is going to need to prepare to issue a loan....

I have amended.

Good morning/afternoon,

Further to the acknowledgment response I sent on 19.08.25 to your e-mail I am now replying more fully about the incident.

I hold a valid 16-25 Railcard which expires on 2nd October 2025 - please see attached. However due to an oversight on my part I failed to update the details on my phone's Trainline app when this replaced my 16-17 Saver Railcard. This was drawn to my attention by the Inspector. I want to clearly apologise and take responsibility for making this mistake. I appreciate that it was my responsibility to ensure the correct Railcard discount was applied to the ticket.

Please be assured I had no intention to evade paying the correct fare. I fully accept that it was my responsibility to ensure that my railcard was valid before travelling, and I am very sorry for the inconvenience this has caused. I assure you that I have learned from this experience and will take greater care in the future to ensure my travel documents are always valid.

I am anxious to get this resolved as soon as possible and I would be most grateful if you would kindly consider resolving the matter without the need for court action. I am happy to pay any fare that I owe along with any costs that might have arisen looking into this.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes. Exactly that. I have amended the response to reflect what you have said and I understand what you mean now looking at it. Again, I really appreciate the time spent helping me, I would not have known how to tackle this alone. Yea definitely bank of Mum will be issuing the loan but she has just got a little job so she can pay it back

Good stuff - you might want to wait a bit for other comments before sending it off but also be mindful of the bank holiday on your timing ref the deadline.

Depending on how they reply and if they start asking about other incidents you may need advice on that and the possible fares history.

 

[Rheafifi83]

Good stuff - you might want to wait a bit for other comments before sending it off but also be mindful of the bank holiday on your timing ref the deadline.

Depending on how they reply and if they start asking about other incidents you may need advice on that and the possible fares history.

Thanks so much. Yes I'm hoping to get it sent off today so we can draw a line for now and see what they come back with.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks so much. Yes I'm hoping to get it sent off today so we can draw a line for now and see what they come back with.

Might be some advantage in waiting till tomorrow morning to see if you get further feedback on your new draft - but if you and your daughter are happy with it then that's up to you of course.

 

[Rheafifi83]

Might be some advantage in waiting till tomorrow morning to see if you get further feedback on your new draft - but if you and your daughter are happy with it then that's up to you of course.

So further update. They were apparently happy (ish) with the first response and have issued a £191 fine which we are paying today. What a relief. I cannot thank you enough for all you help. You deserve some very good karma and I hope it comes your way very soon

 

[WesternLancer]

So further update. They were apparently happy (ish) with the first response and have issued a £191 fine which we are paying today. What a relief. I cannot thank you enough for all you help. You deserve some very good karma and I hope it comes your way very soon

Good news. have they explained what that is for (admin and fare or admin and multiple fares for example?)

needless to say keep copies of everything, inc proof of payment of the sum, and keep all that long term (over a year) in case ever needed

With WM Trains they often seem to follow up later after checking for other invalid tickets as I mentioned before - your daughter needs to prepare for that and keep an eye out for further e-mails in coming weeks or months (or posted letters) keep an eye on spam for that too.

Needless to say - head back here for advice if that happens on how best to handle that.

 

[Rheafifi83]

Good news. have they explained what that is for (admin and fare or admin and multiple fares for example?)

needless to say keep copies of everything, inc proof of payment of the sum, and keep all that long term (over a year) in case ever needed

With WM Trains they often seem to follow up later after checking for other invalid tickets as I mentioned before - your daughter needs to prepare for that and keep an eye out for further e-mails in coming weeks or months (or posted letters) keep an eye on spam for that too.

Needless to say - head back here for advice if that happens on how best to handle that.

I have attached. Thanks for the advice