Datum points

[railfan99]

Is the datum point for each group of English rail lines near the buffer stop of the relevant London terminus, or somewhere else?

 

[Elecman]

Depends !! If the original train company went to London. The Lancashire and Yorkshire datum was the middle of a Manchester Victoria platform

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There's famously a multi route datum point at York isn't there, the "milepost zero"?

 

[D6975]

Midland Railway measured from Derby.

 

[snowball]

Midland Railway measured from Derby.

But the mileposts on the MML are measured from St Pancras, are they not?

There must be a few previous threads about this lying around.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is the datum point for each group of English rail lines near the buffer stop of the relevant London terminus, or somewhere else?

Certainly depends, noting that the question seems to assume that the datum point / zero point is always going to be at a London terminal station. Quite often is, but that won't necessarily always be the case.

BTW, why is the mileage datum point at Euston a minus figure. Did the buffer stops there get moved at some time?

 

[driver9000]

Depends on the historic origins of the line in question. If you travel from Euston for example along the West Coast Main Line you will pass mileage datum points at Winwick Junction, Preston station, Lancaster station and Carlisle station before reaching Glasgow Central.

 

[snowball]

BTW, why is the mileage datum point at Euston a minus figure. Did the buffer stops there get moved at some time?

Yes, in the remodelling of Euston at the time of electrification, when the famous arch was demolished.

 

[Tester]

The mileposts approaching Marylebone were (still are?) around the 200 mark and increasing southbound, so presumably measured via the Great Central from Manchester.

 

[D6975]

But the mileposts on the MML are measured from St Pancras, are they not?

The Midland re-measured their system in 1907, using St P as the datum

 

[Senex]

The Midland re-measured their system in 1907, using St P as the datum

The Midland 1907 system is thoroughly organised. Zero at St Pancras and then through by the shortest route not involving reversal, and zero at Derby London Road Jn for the West Lines (same principle). A new zero for branches/curves that trailed into the line from London/Derby.

Thus St Pancras - Trent - Chesterfield - Old Road - Masborough - Leeds Whitehall Curve - Carlisle Petteril Bridge Jn; Derby - Saltley - Camp Hill - Gloucester Eastgate - Bristol; etc. So at somewhere like Chinley North Jn two sets of distances meet up, the shorter via Derby North Jn and the longer via the Erewash Valley and Dore South Jn, and the shorter series duly carries on towards Manchester.

Am I right to think that the only other large company that ended up quite so systematic about it all was the North Eastern?

 

[Boodiggy]

Certainly depends, noting that the question seems to assume that the datum point / zero point is always going to be at a London terminal station. Quite often is, but that won't necessarily always be the case.

BTW, why is the mileage datum point at Euston a minus figure. Did the buffer stops there get moved at some time?

Not all platforms at Euston. Some go back to minus 56 yards while others start at zero..

 

[Gloster]

At Paddington I think that the buffer stops are at 5 chains as they have gradually retreated westwards as The Lawn was built over. I have read that originally the zero point was at the boundary of the GWR’s property, but I can’t confirm this.

 

[edwin_m]

The Midland 1907 system is thoroughly organised. Zero at St Pancras and then through by the shortest route not involving reversal, and zero at Derby London Road Jn for the West Lines (same principle). A new zero for branches/curves that trailed into the line from London/Derby.

Derby is indeed the same principle, but seems to have been the reason many people wrongly think the Midland set all its mileages from Derby. What does happen at Derby is that an Up train from Sheffield towards Birmingham becomes a Down train.

 

[etr221]

Some of the milage datums are I think from the property boundary, rather then the buffer stop(s). Waterloo is - according to Quail - from the former Waterloo Junction with the South Eastern Railway.

I am sometimes surprised by the fact that while in Victorian times there seem to have been a number of re-mileing exercises, as various companies networks developed - ones that spring to mind are the South Eastern, to a datum at Charing Cross, and the Great Eastern (Liverpool Street) - apart from the Midland's 1907 exercise, there have been none since.

Although I understand at the time of the London Underground redistancing (or remeasuring) in kilometers based on Ongar c 1970, there was a proposal to do the same sort of exercise for BR (with similar changes of datums, etc.), but it was considered too difficult/complex/expensive, and so was dropped.

Having reread the original post, when talks about 'each group' of lines having a datum at 'the relevant' London terminus, a lot of lines did not, but worked from local datums base on where they started. If details are wanted, best (easiest) sources are probably the Quail track atlases. or Phil Deaves's 'Railway Codes' ELR (Engineers' Line Reference and mileage pages - see http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/elrs/elr0.shtm (and his station list at http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/station1.shtm) to find the ELR.

 

[Magdalia]

Is the datum point for each group of English rail lines near the buffer stop of the relevant London terminus, or somewhere else?

A simple way to think about this is to start with the Trans-Pennine route from Liverpool to York via Manchester and Leeds.

North of that very little is on a London datum.

The Midland re-measured their system in 1907, using St P as the datum

The main exception being the Midland Railway line to Carlisle.

South of that a lot of routes are on a London datum.

The mileposts approaching Marylebone were (still are?) around the 200 mark and increasing southbound, so presumably measured via the Great Central from Manchester.

That's right, though the main survivor of the Great Central Manchester datum is the route from Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough.

Joint Lines can provide some exceptions, for example Spalding to Doncaster via Lincoln is GN&GE Joint with a datum at Huntingdon via March.

One rare survivor is Sheringham-Cromer which is still on the M&GN Joint South Lynn datum, as is the North Norfolk Railway the other side of the Sheringham level crossing.

 

[edwin_m]

I am sometimes surprised by the fact that while in Victorian times there seem to have been a number of re-mileing exercises, as various companies networks developed - ones that spring to mind are the South Eastern, to a datum at Charing Cross, and the Great Eastern (Liverpool Street) - apart from the Midland's 1907 exercise, there have been none since.

A lot of cost for very little benefit. Numerous engineering drawings and operating documents, and even things like the numbering of location cases, are based on the miles and chains from the historic datum, and there would be huge confusion unless all of those where changed too.

The main exception being the Midland Railway line to Carlisle.

The Midland mileage from St Pancras runs all the way to Petterill Bridge Junction where the Settle and Carlisle joins the line from Newcastle, which was there first. The sequence ends at 307 miles 12 chains, although it's broken by closure of the original route in Yorkshire. The highest numbered milepost will be 326.5 on the platform at Penzance, from Paddington via Bath, although this sequence is also interrupted as it went via the old Millbay station in Plymouth.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Depends on the historic origins of the line in question. If you travel from Euston for example along the West Coast Main Line you will pass mileage datum points at Winwick Junction, Preston station, Lancaster station and Carlisle station before reaching Glasgow Central.

Sorry for being picky, but the initial series from Euston extends to Golborne Jn, a few miles beyond Winwick Jn.

Bear in mind some milepost series are not continuous where lines have been significantly re-aligned (e.g. Wolverton, Warrington - and more recently the down slow north of Stafford).

Then you find the Caley from Carlisle to Glasgow is 11 chains longer than posted (as per 1970s electrification survey) and you may want to adjust for that!

For the Channel Tunnel, distances in metric, the initial published data suggested an origin in the Westenhanger area and IIRC this was even shown on early Quail maps as such. But in reality, the 'zero' is at KM 10 at the UK Portal, with distances counted back to the UK portal round the various running loops to avoid negative distances.

Similarly, the Welsh Highland Rly is posted from an origin at KM 20 at the footbridge over Caernarfon station (1) to cater for any future extensions back through the down to the historic station site and interchange with a rebuilt standard gauge from Bangor (now highly unlikely, but a gap has been left alongside the new station building, just in case) and (2) to avoid any confusion with the Ffestiniog's miles and chains from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog.

 

[railfan99]

Based on datum points, has anyone ever produced a complete railway map of the UK showing mileages (or how many kilometres) each station and junction is from say London termini, with broken lines or some other indicator denoting when the mileage/kilometerage changes?

The latter situation occurs when it's less distance to reach station or junction X by a different route.

A mapmaker would need to have many enlarged areas due to the complexity of your rail network, even though Beeching et al closed many lines.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Some of the milage datums are I think from the property boundary, rather then the buffer stop(s). Waterloo is - according to Quail - from the former Waterloo Junction with the South Eastern Railway.

This seems strange, since the Waterloo Junction link must have been put in quite some years after Waterloo was first built. Unless all the Waterloo lines were recalculated when that link was added? And presumably the figure would then be "going backwards" from the direction of the figures on the main line the junction link ran from - ie the line from ChX, which presumably started numbering from that station?

 

[edwin_m]

This seems strange, since the Waterloo Junction link must have been put in quite some years after Waterloo was first built. Unless all the Waterloo lines were recalculated when that link was added? And presumably the figure would then be "going backwards" from the direction of the figures on the main line the junction link ran from - ie the line from ChX, which presumably started numbering from that station?

I suspect some lines were re-miled relatively early in railway history when there weren't too many documents to change. But I have no evidence one way or the other.

 

[Senex]

A full re-survey and re-mileposting was indeed very rare for the reasons that have been suggested (so many and various existing records to be changed etc), but one BR example was the line eastwards from Preston, at the end of the 1960s, I think.

11 chains extra on the Caledonian between Carlisle and Glasgow seems a lot. Does anyone know whereabouts the extra seems to come into play?

There's another oddity about the Caledonian that seems to go right back to the start, and that is the turn-back of the mileposts of the Edinburgh line at Carstairs Station Jn which was done even though there was at first a through line to Edinburgh along which a direct milepost run could have been taken.

And has anyone ever seen a zero milepost for the Caledonian? It should be equidistant between the Crown Street bridge and the former Borough Street bridge.

 

[ainsworth74]

There's famously a multi route datum point at York isn't there, the "milepost zero"?

Indeed there is! It was restored a few years ago as it was beginning to get a bit careworn:

Restored zero mile post returns to York​

24/09/20

LNER is proud to reveal the restored Zero Mile Post has returned to York Station.
Mile posts were a historic system used by railway companies to measure lines and calculate fares, with ‘Zero Posts’ marking the start of where each line was measured from.
Ten lines or routes shared a Zero Post located at the centre of York Station although it is thought that the original may have been melted down as part of the wartime drive for scrap metal.
A replica post which was installed in 2004 to celebrate the 150th anniversary of The North Eastern Railway has now been reinstalled after being restored to reflect York’s rich railway heritage.
LNER Managing Director David Horne, said: “LNER is proud of our heritage in York, a city with a rich history steeped in the railways.
“It is wonderful to see the Zero Post return to its home in York station and looking so magnificent. Although distances between our destinations have not changed, the speed, comfort and service offered to our customers has been transformed. It is great York remains home to this important piece of history from the era of the North Eastern Railway.”
The North Eastern Railway was formed in 1854 and inherited all sorts of mile posts, sometimes measured from unlikely places. In 1905 it was decided to re-measure all North Eastern Railway lines using a standard system.
Chairman of the North Eastern Railway Association, Neil Mackay, said: “The post became a celebrity after it was installed, though many were puzzled by the line initials shown. Our association is delighted to have helped maintain the links between today’s railway and its predecessors.”
The Zero Post has been cleaned and repainted by the North Eastern Railway Association and is now displayed in the original location near the stairs between platforms 5 and 9.

Restored zero mile post returns to York | LNER

LNER is proud to reveal the restored Zero Mile Post has returned to York Station.

www.lner.co.uk

 

[12LDA28C]

Based on datum points, has anyone ever produced a complete railway map of the UK showing mileages (or how many kilometres) each station and junction is from say London termini, with broken lines or some other indicator denoting when the mileage/kilometerage changes?

The latter situation occurs when it's less distance to reach station or junction X by a different route.

A mapmaker would need to have many enlarged areas due to the complexity of your rail network, even though Beeching et al closed many lines.

UK railway distances such as those featured in the Sectional Appendix are measured in miles, not kilometres. Only the main lines out of London would have mileage relating to the distance from London (with few exceptions such as the aforementioned Marylebone). Note also that Paddington is 0m 5c due to the zero measurement being taken from beyond the buffer stops.

There are various publications that list railway mileages in the UK and include change of mileage, such as Mile By Mile, published in the 1980s and the various 'Quail' maps, published by region.

 

[snowball]

UK railway distances such as those featured in the Sectional Appendix are measured in miles, not kilometres.

However, surveying and engineering design have been done in metric for the last 50 years, so the numbering of electrification structures on routes electrified in that time (such as the WCML north of Weaver Junction and the whole ECML) is based on kilometres.

 

[12LDA28C]

However, surveying and engineering design have been done in metric for the last 50 years, so the numbering of electrification structures on routes electrified in that time (such as the WCML north of Weaver Junction and the whole ECML) is based on kilometres.

Indeed, although operational staff such as drivers, signallers and so on still use miles for day to day operations despite signalling scheme plans using measurements in metric (whilst still showing mileposts).

 

[King Lazy]

Sorry for being picky, but the initial series from Euston extends to Golborne Jn, a few miles beyond Winwick Jn.

Indeed. The lines around that area are quite complex mileage wise and I’ve always found it a fascinating area.

Wigan NW and Preston stations are measured from zero at Newton le Willows Junction.

So trains heading from London to Preston find their mileage counts up from London to Golborne but doesn’t return to zero there, instead picking up the mileposts from a zero on the Liverpool and Manchester line between the 1/2 And 3/4 mileposts.
There is a zero at Winwick towards Earlestown.

My favourite quirk of railway mileages occurs at Mossband Junction north of Carlisle.

The main WCML runs from zero at Carlisle Citadel.

The goods lines through Kingmoor yard are measured from zero at Upperby Bridge Junction via Bog Junction and the now non-existent route via Rome Street Junction.

Part of the former Smalmstown branch is still in existence providing access to Longtown MOD site. That branch had its miles counted from a zero at Longtown Junction on the former Waverley route towards the WCML.

The Smalmstown branch just reaches 3 miles before meeting the WCML at Mossband. The Up arrival line branches off and begins its count down towards Upperby Bridge via the now non existent avoiding lines while the Up and Down mains continue their countdown to zero at Carlisle station.

The result is a 7+3/4, a 9+1/4 and a 3 milepost all positioned within I’d say, less than 50m of each other applying to 3 separate, still operational sections of line.

 

[snowball]

And if the Waverley line were ever to be reopened that far south, it would now go that way. Perhaps the mileages would be rationalised.

 

[Railsigns]

The result is a 7+3/4, a 9+1/4 and a 3 milepost all positioned within I’d say, less than 50m of each other applying to 3 separate, still operational sections of line.

At Antrim station, where the two routes from Belfast meet, the 18 1/2 milepost (measured via Crumlin) and the 21 3/4 milepost (measured via Greenisland) are coincident and fixed one above the other on the same post.

Just south of Yeovil Pen Mill station, where the two single lines run adjacent to each other, the 1 1/2 milepost on the line to Yeovil Junction and the 141 1/2 milepost on the line to Weymouth are both directly in line with each other, showing a difference in mileage of exactly 140 miles.

 

[charlie_sweetm]

The GeoFurlong web site may be of interest for some of the locations mentioned in this thread.

• Carlisle
• Yeovil Jn
• Newton-le-Willows
• Carstairs
• Chinley North Jn

National Map

On the location maps, each Engineer's Line Reference (ELR) is colour-coded, mileages are shown as small white circles, and junctions as large white circles. Hover over these markers to see their descriptions.