Dartford to Denmark Hill

[Laura]

I was wondering if anyone would know whether there is a cheaper way to travel between Dartford and Denmark Hill stations than buying a monthly return ticket?

I need to travel before 8am and return after 5pm.

Thanks

 

[mikeg]

On what date are you travelling? Do you have or are you eligible for any railcards? Day returns are available. Is your travel on a weekend? Do you wish to make use of High Speed 1 or are you not bothered about speed?

We need answers to these questions to work out what the cheapest fare will be.

Edit: Forget HS1, unless you wanted to stop off somewhere specific you would be better not using it - these stations are not around my patch (I'm from up North) so not overly familiar with the routeings, sorry.

 

[Bungle73]

How would one use HS1 to get from Dartford to Denmark Hill? :?

 

[mikeg]

Sorry I was just looking at the available fares. As I said, not overly familiar with the area and was waiting for a response to give it a more detailed look.

To the OP: If you have no preference as to routeing, and as you are quoting a monthly return I suspect you are returning on a different day, you would probably be better off buying two anytime day singles, route not via London for £6.40 each, £12.80 in total. Not via London also shows up on East Coast as the quickest route. The reason the monthly return (off peak return) costs so much is it is route +any permitted, which allows you to take any route permitted by the routeing guide and also includes tube transfer across London. This is unnecessary for the majority of travellers.

There may be ways of splitting or using routeing guide anomalies (best not communicated here but by PM as public mention can mean the end of them) to get this down further, but it looks like quite a reasonable fare so I doubt it.
I will nonetheless look into it.

 

[yorkie]

There is no such thing as a return fare valid for one month (ie, Anytime Return or Off Peak Return) for this flow.

Perhaps the OP means a one month Season ticket?

Season tickets are available as 7 Days, or any period between 1 calendar month and one year (for someone travelling Monday-Friday it is best value to buy seasons that last for 5 working weeks starting on a Monday and finishing on a Friday, taking into account annual leave & bank holidays also).

There is a Season Ticket calculator here:
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/search

 

[mikeg]

Funny, Avantix Traveller NFM10 shows a SVR with restriction 4A, costing £22.70 (if it's still around it will have increased) for Dartford to Denmark Hill, but no such fare in the reverse direction

 

[yorkie]

Funny, Avantix Traveller NFM10 shows a SVR with restriction 4A, costing £22.70 (if it's still around it will have increased) for Dartford to Denmark Hill, but no such fare in the reverse direction

Bizarre. Yes, you are right. Though it's rather expensive and only useful for someone who wanted to go out of their way via HS1 & cross-London transfer (which is rather unlikely).

 

[Paul Kelly]

A ticket from Slade Green to Denmark Hill is valid via Dartford (indeed, changing in Dartford is the quickest way of making this journey) and is quite a bit cheaper at £4.10 for an anytime day single and £27.10 for a weekly season, or £104.10 for a monthly (but see yorkie's advice above for not buying one for *exactly* a month, rather extending it a bit to start on a Monday and end on a Friday). A surprisingly hefty saving on the prices from Dartford!

 

[34D]

I was wondering if anyone would know whether there is a cheaper way to travel between Dartford and Denmark Hill stations than buying a monthly return ticket?

I need to travel before 8am and return after 5pm.

Thanks

I guess a Dartford zone 2-6 travelcard is more expensive? Do you travel 5 days a week?

Is there really a plus High Speed fare for this journey? Bizarre

 

[Laura]

Sorry for the confusion yes i meant any cheaper way than a monthly season ticket. I work in denmark hill and travel daily between the two stations. I didnt realise that a ticket from slade green to denmark hill was valid via dartford. Is this true as dartford is just outside the london zones. I don't need a travelcard attached to my ticket as i never venture into london. How do i not buy a ticket for exactly a month and extend it? I was never aware that i could do this. Thanks for all your help.

 

[LexyBoy]

Sorry for the confusion yes i meant any cheaper way than a monthly season ticket. I work in denmark hill and travel daily between the two stations. I didnt realise that a ticket from slade green to denmark hill was valid via dartford. Is this true as dartford is just outside the london zones. I don't need a travelcard attached to my ticket as i never venture into london. How do i not buy a ticket for exactly a month and extend it? I was never aware that i could do this. Thanks for all your help.

For a 'point to point' ticket, permitted routes are determined by the Routeing Guide; the London Zones don't come into it. As National Rail Enquiries uses this as a basis for its journey planner, any route it shows as valid on a single ticket will be permitted (in theory...). As a season ticket is valid at any intermediate stations, it's perfectly ok to start from Dartford.

To buy longer than a month, just ask for a ticket valid until {date}, or 1 month 6 days or whatever. If you can afford it, an annual would likely be cheaper (your employer may do a loan scheme).

 

[Laura]

LexyBoy thanks for your help it is a massive saving buying the ticket from Slade Green!

34D there is no highspeed for this journey unless you want to go down the line into london and across london which would make no sense at all!

I'm afraid I am confused about the ticket extension you talk about, surely if I buy a ticket for 1 month and 6 days or whatever it is they simply add the cost to the end of the month therefore not making it any cheaper? i am not sure If I have misunderstood apologies I have never heard of doing this before.

Thanks to all for your help!

 

[MikeWh]

I'm afraid I am confused about the ticket extension you talk about, surely if I buy a ticket for 1 month and 6 days or whatever it is they simply add the cost to the end of the month therefore not making it any cheaper? i am not sure If I have misunderstood apologies I have never heard of doing this before.

If you buy tickets for calendar months then you end up with a ticket all year including weekends and holidays. If you buy a ticket from Monday 16th Jan to Friday 17th Feb you pay for 2 extra days at the same daily rate as a monthly and then don't have a ticket for the weekend. You start the next one on Feb 20th until Mar 23rd (February is the worst month for this because it's under 30 days). If you can time it right (perhaps by buying 6 or 7 weeks one month) you can end up with a bank holiday weekend off or even a weeks annual leave. With good planning you can end up only buying the equivalent of 10 or so monthly tickets which is the same cost as an annual but without having to cough up the whole amount at the start.

 

[Laura]

Ok I see what you mean! Thank you for explaining it to me, I had always assumed that the ticket had to last a calender month I didn't realise you could add days onto it at the monthly rate. I will certainly be taking advantage of all tips given to me on here!

 

[John @ home]

I agree that Slade Green - Denmark Hill via Dartford is Permitted. The mapped Permitted Routes are shown on map NK.

 

[Laura]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering if you could help me, I have been buying a ticket from Slade Green to Denmark Hill and have been coming in and out of the station at Dartford for about 8 weeks or so.

I have had no problems and have been showing my ticket to the staff to get in and out of the barriers everyday without issue. On 28 March I was stopped by a revenue officer coming out of the barriers at Dartford I showed him my ticket and he stated that I could not use it at Dartford.

I explained to him that I had been told that the ticket was valid at Dartford and I could come in and out there. (before buying the tivket I had checked this with a staff member at Barnehurst who told me that I could use the ticket as I could come in and out at any station valid on my route where I had a season ticket)

He went and checked with his manager and said that I could not come in and out of Dartford on this ticket, he also said that I could not even come down to Dartford to change trains. I had been told that I could come down to Dartford and change or up to Blackheath and change.

The revenue officer told me that this was incorrect and said that all I could do was get a rounder train between Slade Green and Barnehurst on my ticket. There are only a few rounder trains a day and most of them during the day when I cannot use them. The revenue officer stated that it was tough and said he should really be taking me to the Magistrates Court and prosecuting me.

In the end he only gave me a penalty fare but I was wondering if I can challenge this, the staff at Barnehurst have said that I should appeal, I was wondering if you could assist me with the grounds I should use to appeal.

Also in your opinion is it permissible for me to enter and exit the station at Dartford on a Slade Green via Denmark Hill ticket?

Thanks

Laura

 

[yorkie]

I believe the shortest route listed in the NRT is 14 miles (via Abbey Wood, Charlton, Lewisham). Routes that are up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route are also permitted.

Slade Green to Denmark Hill via Dartford & Bexleyheath is 16.25 miles, this is clearly within 3 miles of the shortest route, therefore it is on a permitted route.

Season Tickets permit unlimited journeys with no break of journey restrictions on permitted routes between origin & destination stations.

Therefore the Penalty Fare has been incorrectly issued.

I am not at all surprised as the level of knowledge of certain RPIs in that area of the country can be rather lacking.

I urge you to immediately appeal the Penalty Fare but also, in addition, seek confirmation from ATOC regarding permitted routes between Slade Green and Dartford, as such written confirmation could be used as evidence. I would also additionally write to SET, expressing surprise and concern at being issued a PF on a permitted route.

If you would me to proof read your letter, don't hesitate to PM me.

 

[island]

That's disappointing to read, Laura. I don't have a lot to add to what yorkie mentioned, but you should of course appeal the penalty fare. We can only hope that it will reach the desk of someone with better knowledge of the system.

I wouldn't get into the "three mile rule" as it's a mapped route.

 

[thedbdiboy]

As things stand this route is permitted so the Penalty Fare should be challenged as it has been incorrectly issued.

 

[Laura]

Thank you for your responses, I am looking at all the documents you have advised Yorkie in order to draft an appeal which I shall PM to you if that is ok.

I did try to explain the postion to the revenue officer he was most rude to me and treated me like I was a fare dodger, i'm not and have never not paid my fares!

Anyway thanks for all your help!

 

[RJ]

Thank you for your responses, I am looking at all the documents you have advised Yorkie in order to draft an appeal which I shall PM to you if that is ok.

I did try to explain the postion to the revenue officer he was most rude to me and treated me like I was a fare dodger, i'm not and have never not paid my fares!

Anyway thanks for all your help!

It's not uncommon for railway staff to get confused, especially if you're using a ticket which is wholly valid, but it's not immediately obvious that is valid. Consequently you may have to spend time justifying the use of that ticket as there is a "guility until proven innocent" rule on the railways. This is a downside you have to be willing to accept if you want to save money through "clever" ticketing. I do it myself and I fully accept that.

I think it's a little unfair that this point was not made clear by people who are knowledgable about tickets themselves when advising the use of this ticket. I've attempted to make this point time and time again, as I have worked in a customer service role in a ticket office, but people on here who have an unusually adept understanding of tickets expect all railway staff to have as much knowledge of the ticketing system as they do, which is simply never going to happen.

As has been advised by Yorkie, write a letter to the address provided, explaining why the ticket is valid using the information provided and eventually, the notice will be struck off.

 

[bb21]

It's not uncommon for railway staff to get confused, especially if you're using a ticket which is wholly valid, but it's not immediately obvious that is valid. Consequently you may have to spend time justifying the use of that ticket as there is a "guility until proven innocent" rule on the railways. This is a downside you have to be willing to accept if you want to save money through "clever" ticketing. I do it myself and I fully accept that. I think it's a little unfair that this point was not made clear by people who are knowledgable about tickets themselves when advising the use of this ticket.

As has been advised by Yorkie, write a letter to the address provided, explaining why the ticket is valid using the information provided and eventually, the notice will be struck off.

I do not agree unfortunately.

If it is not immediately clear that a ticket might be valid, it is not up to the passenger to justify him-/herself. Railway staff should be in a position to confirm whether it is the case, or have the resources available to them. It is unfair that a passenger who has paid the correct fare and stuck by the rules laid out by the railway companies to have to then prove their innocence because the railway industry prefers to adopt a "guilty until proven innocent" attitude.

 

[RJ]

I do not agree unfortunately.

If it is not immediately clear that a ticket might be valid, it is not up to the passenger to justify him-/herself. Railway staff should be in a position to confirm whether it is the case, or have the resources available to them. It is unfair that a passenger who has paid the correct fare and stuck by the rules laid out by the railway companies to have to then prove their innocence because the railway industry prefers to adopt a "guilty until proven innocent" attitude.

I totally agree with your ideals but as you're all well aware by now, I work on an empirical approach where I provide advice based upon the way things actually are. If your ideals reflected reality then laura would not be in this situation and many other people who have had PFNs and UFNs despite holding a fully valid ticket would not be in that situation either.

So I stand by my point that a disclaimer should be provided to warn people of potential consequences of using "clever" ticketing to save money.

 

[bb21]

I totally agree with your ideals but as you're all well aware by now, I work on an empirical approach where I provide advice based upon the way things actually are. If your ideals reflected reality then laura would not be in this situation and many other people who have had PFNs and UFNs despite holding a fully valid ticket would not be in that situation either.

So I stand by my point that a disclaimer should be provided to warn people of potential consequences of using "clever" ticketing to save money.

No, I don't disagree with the "disclaimer".

Although ideal situation might not happen for a long time, the railway industry should not assume that the way things are at the moment is satisfactory, and I believe a letter of complaint in this case would be fully justified.

 

[RJ]

Very true. But the ticketing system is so complex that the only reasonable response to that letter would be "the system is complicated and although we apologise for this incident, we will have to deal with future complaints on an individual basis, rather than train our staff up" although perhaps a little more sugarcoated. That's more or less what I got from EMT and to be honest, I don't really blame them.

I do have a vision to go some way towards improving the situation and I'm actually using the resources available to me to try and sort out a couple of things but for the meantime, I think it's just one of those things that ultimately, has to be accepted.

 

[MikeWh]

Going back to the subject of the thread, I have a letter from Southeastern customer services confirming that via Dartford is valid on a ticket from Abbey Wood to Crayford. Obviously that isn't quite the same thing, but it proves that Southeastern are aware of the validity of via Dartford on certain London area ticket flows. The same letter also confirmed that using Oyster between the two stations was not allowed, even for interchange only. That part was particularly disappointing to my wife as her late night at work means that she misses the last rounder service at least once a week.

I can only hope that whoever is the next Mayor of London presses on with the idea of TfL taking over the Souteastern commuter network and introducing Oyster to at least Dartford.

 

[Laura]

I understand that rail staff will not know every loophole and I am fine with having to submit appeals the problem was that I explained the reasons why I could use the ticket to the RPI and that I had been informed that I could use my ticket in this way by a member of SET.

What I think was wrong was that the RPI just acted as though I was lying that I had been told this by a member of staff and simply threatened to take me to the Magistrates Court and was generally rude.

If rail staff do not know whether a ticket is valid that is fine but to be rude and ignore the points I am making is simply unacceptable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks for that Mike, whilst your letter isn't the same thing it is certainly useful! Hopefully I can get something in writing regarding the route from Southeastern to avoid this trouble in the future. Any ideas how I would go about this?

 

[RJ]

I understand that rail staff will not know every loophole and I am fine with having to submit appeals the problem was that I explained the reasons why I could use the ticket to the RPI and that I had been informed that I could use my ticket in this way by a member of SET.

What I think was wrong was that the RPI just acted as though I was lying that I had been told this by a member of staff and simply threatened to take me to the Magistrates Court and was generally rude.

If rail staff do not know whether a ticket is valid that is fine but to be rude and ignore the points I am making is simply unacceptable.

I agree with you. Some people are stubborn/proud and would rather stonewall you than say "Ok, I don't know." This is sadly common in front line railway staff. Although it may be worth complaining, I personally don't bother when this happens to me as in my experience, the TOC has put the blame on me for using "clever" ticketing and ignored the issue of their staff's attitude. However, they did pay out compensation. I claimed for what I was charged, two hours wages for my trip to the post office, the price of recorded delivery, the price of the envelope and everything else associated with appealing so I considered it case closed.

The reasoning behind this kind of response is probably because a high percentage of people reported for ticketing misdemeanors exaggerate or otherwise bang on about how horrible the staff were, so they don't know when a complaint is genuine. Personally, I brush it off and accept it as a consequence of saving money, then continue on with far more important things I have to get on with

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for that Mike, whilst your letter isn't the same thing it is certainly useful! Hopefully I can get something in writing regarding the route from Southeastern to avoid this trouble in the future. Any ideas how I would go about this?

I filled in the "Contact Us" form on their website asking for clarification of the various options for my wife's journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't get into the "three mile rule" as it's a mapped route.

Only just spotted this line. I'd mention both because valid routes are defined by the routeing guide which includes the 3-mile-rule as well as the maps. It is clearly also valid on map NK without doubling back, even though they haven't quite got the position of the junctions between Dartford and Slade Green in the right order.

 

[Laura]

Thank you to everyone for your help, I have sent off my appeal today by recorded delivery I shall let you know when I receive a response.