"Dartford lines" history

[Mikey C]

As well as being the original route between Woolwich and London, the use of the line between Blackheath and Charlton does provide a really useful connection between Lewisham and Woolwich, two major centres otherwise not especially well connected, and gets plenty of use on Charlton Athletic matchdays.

 

[midland1]

Thanks, I'll see if I can track it down - assume this would be out of print by now?

More than one Southern Electric by Moody on ebay cheapest being £4.99

 

[30907]

More than one Southern Electric by Moody on ebay cheapest being £4.99

But check the edition, as mentioned upthread.

There's also David Brown, Southern Electric - a new history (2 vols) from Capital Transport. Much more detailed but Moody is particularly good on train service patterns, schematic maps included.

 

[midland1]

But check the edition, as mentioned upthread.

There's also David Brown, Southern Electric - a new history (2 vols) from Capital Transport. Much more detailed but Moody is particularly good on train service patterns, schematic maps included.

It was the 1979 edition I have one myself and I agree Moody is good on train service patterns

 

[Busaholic]

I wonder if @Busaholic would know.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think it was around the time I was leaving London forever, partly because of my fears over the safety of myself and, more importantly, my wife, she having been 'mugged' by a knifeman not long after getting off a train at Blackheath Station in the evening when I was in Bristol. The murder of Stephen Lawrence in Well Hall Road, Eltham a few months later only reinforced our decision, given I had lived on that road growing up, not that I'm making a comparison between his sickening killing and anything we experienced, other than the complete uninterest of the local Met Police in apprehending perpetrators of violent crimes. A long-winded way of saying, no,sorry, can't help on this occasion.

 

[frodshamfella]

I was a regular commuter from Bexleyheath to London in the 80s, so I knew services on that line best. At the time Cannon Street was an all stopper except St Johns ( although some years St Johns was added ) . Charing Cross Was normally fast Lewisham to London Bridge , or Fast Kidbrook to Waterloo East. There were a few Holborn Viaduct/ Blackfriars, not calling at Nunhead or Denmark Hill. The Victoria service I don't recall so much as it came along later, I think after the Holborn Viaduct services had gone.

Destinations on the country end , were Dartford generally , but also Gravesend , with some early / late services to and from Gillingham. Peak services also terminated at Barnehurst and Slade Green.

 

[telstarbox]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think it was around the time I was leaving London forever, partly because of my fears over the safety of myself and, more importantly, my wife, she having been 'mugged' by a knifeman not long after getting off a train at Blackheath Station in the evening when I was in Bristol. The murder of Stephen Lawrence in Well Hall Road, Eltham a few months later only reinforced our decision, given I had lived on that road growing up, not that I'm making a comparison between his sickening killing and anything we experienced, other than the complete uninterest of the local Met Police in apprehending perpetrators of violent crimes. A long-winded way of saying, no,sorry, can't help on this occasion.

Understood, sorry to put you on the spot.

 

[E27007]

The closed branch line from St John/Lewisham to a terminus at Greenwich via Blackheath Hill is interesting:

Blackheath Hill Tunnel and Air Raid Shelter – Subterranea Britannica

Subterranea Britannica is a society devoted to the study and investigation of man-made (including Nuclear Bunkers) and man-used underground places.

www.subbrit.org.uk

 

[frodshamfella]

The closed branch line from St John/Lewisham to a terminus at Greenwich via Blackheath Hill is interesting:

Blackheath Hill Tunnel and Air Raid Shelter – Subterranea Britannica

Subterranea Britannica is a society devoted to the study and investigation of man-made (including Nuclear Bunkers) and man-used underground places.

www.subbrit.org.uk

Interesting , thank you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

From what I recall, the semi-fast all day service CX to Gillingham , called at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Lewisham, Woolwich A, Dartford, Gravesend , Higham ( 1 think 1 of the half hourly service , skipped here ) Strood,Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham. I definitely recall being taken on summer services extended to Ramsgate. Abbey Wood was added as a stop in the 70s, I think to offer more service for the Thamesmead development. Blackheath was added much later.

The Dartford Loop had some peak fast services , which run from Sidcup non stop to either London Bridge or Waterloo East, can't be sure which now. There were also peak services along the Dartford Loop, that divided at Strood, with half for Maidstone West and half for Gillingham.

 

[Mikey C]

From what I recall, the semi-fast all day service CX to Gillingham , called at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Lewisham, Woolwich A, Dartford, Gravesend , Higham ( 1 think 1 of the half hourly service , skipped here ) Strood,Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham. I definitely recall being taken on summer services extended to Ramsgate. Abbey Wood was added as a stop in the 70s, I think to offer more service for the Thamesmead development. Blackheath was added much later.

The "62" also stopped at Charlton, certainly since 1992 when Charlton Athletic returned to The Valley

 

[nw1]

I have a very distinct memory of the 1987 off-peak down timetable, which had an exact 5-min interval for the suburban routes out of Charing Cross, and called Waterloo East at the clockface times (00, 05, 10 etc). Solid EPB formations of various lengths (max 10-car), of course.

I can't remember what left at what time, but I do know the 12tph was made up of:

2tph '62' semi-fast to Gillingham, via Lewisham and Woolwich
2tph Greenwich route
2tph Kidbrooke route
2tph Sidcup route
2tph Orpington (not Sevenoaks except in peak hours; intermediate stops served by the hourly Tunbridge Wells stopper)
2tph Hayes

Cannon Street was peak only, with the off-peak (Mon-Fri only) being a 4tph shuttle to London Bridge.

The 1981 and 1982 timetables are available on Timetable World, they have a similar pattern of service but didn't feature the exact 5-min interval.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

This is a great thread for Dartford lines history. I think it was the first thread I commented on.

 

[frodshamfella]

The "62" also stopped at Charlton, certainly since 1992 when Charlton Athletic returned to The Valley

Oh yes, forgot they added Charlton

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

I have a very distinct memory of the 1987 off-peak down timetable, which had an exact 5-min interval for the suburban routes out of Charing Cross, and called Waterloo East at the clockface times (00, 05, 10 etc). Solid EPB formations of various lengths (max 10-car), of course.

I can't remember what left at what time, but I do know the 12tph was made up of:

2tph '62' semi-fast to Gillingham, via Lewisham and Woolwich
2tph Greenwich route
2tph Kidbrooke route
2tph Sidcup route
2tph Orpington (not Sevenoaks except in peak hours; intermediate stops served by the hourly Tunbridge Wells stopper)
2tph Hayes

Cannon Street was peak only, with the off-peak (Mon-Fri only) being a 4tph shuttle to London Bridge.

The 1981 and 1982 timetables are available on Timetable World, they have a similar pattern of service but didn't feature the exact 5-min interval.

I remember the off peak service up to CX from Bexleyheath was xx53, xx13 and xx33 . It was at some point reduced along with the other Dartford lines to twice an hour.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Oh yes, forgot they added Charlton

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==



I remember the off peak service up to CX from Bexleyheath was xx53, xx13 and xx33 . It was at some point reduced along with the other Dartford lines to twice an hour.

Can't believe the Greenwich line was only 2 an hour, given its such a tourist destination.

 

[yorksrob]

Can't believe the Greenwich line was only 2 an hour, given its such a tourist destination.

You can fit plenty of tourists on an 8 or ten carriage EPB !

 

[30907]

Can't believe the Greenwich line was only 2 an hour, given its such a tourist destination.

It was the case even in the mid 50s when offpeak services were at their height (significant cuts were made in 1959 with most SE routes losing 1tph).
Greenwich was much less of a tourist destination back then (Cutty Sark was newly open when I visited on a school outing in 1963....) - in fact, I don't recall it being a significant one when I did SR train enquiries in 78-80, unlike Hampton Court.
Perhaps everyone used the river boats?

 

[John Webb]

It was the case even in the mid 50s when offpeak services were at their height (significant cuts were made in 1959 with most SE routes losing 1tph).
Greenwich was much less of a tourist destination back then (Cutty Sark was newly open when I visited on a school outing in 1963....) - in fact, I don't recall it being a significant one when I did SR train enquiries in 78-80, unlike Hampton Court.
Perhaps everyone used the river boats?

When I lived further down the line at Woolwich 1950s-70s, there was positive advertising for some years suggesting using Maze Hill for accessing the National Maritime Museum (NMM) as it was a shorter walk from there to the eastern entrance of the NMM than the walk from Greenwich station to the main entrance of the NMM. I think this all goes back to the Royal Observatory's desire to keep the railways at a distance to avoid them disturbing the work of the Observatory so that Greenwich station is at a distance from the obvious 'town centre'.