Dangerous Station Platforms

[ModernRailways]

Many of these platforms look like the pavements around me in Sheffield, which despite being gritted multiple times a day by the locals, the sheer quantity of snow that fell and the subsequent deep freeze means it's taking days to melt back, even on well travelled parts.

A large part of Northerns problem is that they’ve not been gritted and there has been seemingly no attempt to clear/grit.
As an example, on the Hallam line Castleford has been cleared, Barnsley has been slightly cleared, and Meadowhall has been slightly cleared. On the Huddersfield-Barnsley route every station is a block of solid sheet ice/snow with some parts being compacted down and becoming even more slippery.
The only thing you can take away from this is Northern have given up or simply don’t care. It seems the cost of a payout, should someone fall and injure themselves, will be less than the cost to treat the issue and Northern are just taking that risk.
Northern crew generally will just accept this as Northern being Northern at this stage and so crew saying we’re not stopping here because it’s dangerous is likely to not happen. Management simply doesn’t care.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't think it would ever occur to me to refuse to stop my train at a snowy/icy platform. Ironically the more modern slightly "shiny" platform edging stones are the most lethal surface there is with a little water or frost at any time of year. You're more likely to see someone fall over at St Pancras or Manchester Piccadilly than Edale.

The problem is a lot of these places getting about on local roads isn't easy and station support teams tend to be somewhat centralised. They could be tied up all day driving between a few stations with compacted ice and then crash their van to boot.

At my place where local staff are happy to volunteer (from the MD downwards) they can clear their local stations, but that relies on them being there and available.

Seems a bit rubbish to have someone struggle along roads and pavements in poor conditions, reach a station with an operating service and only to have the train wizz past because a guard has decided it shouldn't stop there to pick you up.

I've been working trains all week to snowbound platforms and wouldn't have thought of not stopping at them.

 

[43066]

At my place where local staff are happy to volunteer (from the MD downwards) they can clear their local stations, but that relies on them being there and available.

Duffield in his case I believe?!

 

[LowLevel]

Duffield in his case I believe?!

Indeed!

 

[43066]

Indeed!

The answer to my previous question is therefore “the TOC MD” in at least that case, fair play to him!

As you say a lot of Northern’s network is pretty inaccessible.

 

[fishwomp]

.. been working trains all week to snowbound platforms and wouldn't have thought of not stopping at them.

Considering the conductor has to get on and off of said platform, given door height differences too, it's actually pretty unsafe for the conductor - relative to the Edge Hill incident last week where that was not compacted thawn-and-refrozen snow/ice.. RMT could've been all over this - and earned a champion of the passenger badge for highlighting it.

Hope to learn from some insiders on here what actually happened - with Treasury responsible for spending, has this platform spend been blocked?

Yesterday (Saturday), Shepley had salt on the three steps on the Sheffield platform at the bottom of the path down to it, and evidence of small amount of salt used on that path as the ice was a bit pitted and breakable with a (very) solid boot, but no evidence of anything on the platform, and definitely no attention to the platform edge.

Penistone had a salted path to the waiting room, but no attention to platform edge.

Here's the view down to Shepley's Huddersfield platform, yesterday lunchtime. It's ice not snow everywhere with footfall. There's some breaking up at the top of the ramp down - has a dusting of salt been applied to cause that, or just sunlight, I don't know - possibly - it had almost reached 1 deg C by then. The platform had no treatment. That was on Saturday, but Thursday, there was nothing but packed snow that had turned to ice then, solid.. Roads have been accessible and gritted for days by then - so no excuses..

 

[dosxuk]

Here's the view down to Shepley's Huddersfield platform, yesterday lunchtime. It's ice not snow everywhere with footfall. There's some breaking up at the top of the ramp down - has a dusting of salt been applied to cause that, or just sunlight, I don't know - possibly - it had almost reached 1 deg C by then. The platform had no treatment. That was on Saturday, but Thursday, there was nothing but packed snow that had turned to ice then, solid.. Roads have been accessible and gritted for days by then - so no excuses..

That's a great example of the sort of snow which grit alone won't shift. Grit plus warmer weather, or grit plus shovels will do it, but grit alone will just leave you with a wet layer which then freezes back to ice as soon as the temperature drops - which then becomes even harder to shift.

It's very unusual for us to experience this amount of snowfall, followed by a long period of significantly below zero temperatures in much of the UK. Normally the quantity will be lower and the temperature will be higher, both allowing a gritting to clear the majority of paths, but that is not the case this year. Are the TOC's contractors geared up (and staffed appropriately) to spend hours manually shovelling platforms - or are they only supposed to do what works for the vast majority of snowfall events - turn up with a couple of buckets of grit and throw it around where it looks particularly risky?

Considering the forum's normal attitude to TOC's calling a "do not travel" event due to weather, I'm surprised at how many people are suggesting that they should cancel services and/or close stations.

 

[43066]

Are the TOC's contractors geared up (and staffed appropriately) to spend hours manually shovelling platforms - or are they only supposed to do what works for the vast majority of snowfall events - turn up with a couple of buckets of grit and throw it around where it looks particularly risky?

The answer to this will be an emphatic “no”. It’s going to take hours of work to clear each of those platforms, and the staff simply aren’t there to do it. Yes you might get volunteers such as the aforementioned TOC MD, but that’s not going to be common, as most people won’t want to spend hours in the cold shovelling snow. Then, as mentioned above, there are accessibility issues, you’ll need 4x4s to reach a lot of Northern’s rural locations, as many minor roads themselves wont be gritted.

The cold weather drill at most locations will be the platform staff throwing some grit down, exactly as you say, and that’s basically it.

 

[fishwomp]

That's a great example of the sort of snow which grit alone won't shift. Grit plus warmer weather, or grit plus shovels will do it, but grit alone will just leave you with a wet layer which then freezes back to ice as soon as the temperature drops - which then becomes even harder to shift.

Yes, you couldn't have designed a worse pattern - 6in of snow, thaw, then negative temp overnight, and then 2in of more snow, and negative temps thereafter. It'll start to melt today and 10c by mid week - so perhaps Northern will swing into action around Wednesday..

[..]Are the TOC's contractors geared up (and staffed appropriately) to spend hours manually shovelling platforms - or are they only supposed to do what works for the vast majority of snowfall events - turn up with a couple of buckets of grit and throw it around where it looks particularly risky?

You'd expect that to be a contractor's problem.. Or as the phrase goes.. "you had one job"...

Considering the forum's normal attitude to TOC's calling a "do not travel" event due to weather, I'm surprised at how many people are suggesting that they should cancel services and/or close stations.

It's a forcing function: you can't stop wind and floods in a day, but you can get shovels and salt out within a morning. That should embarrass the operator, revenue should be lost, ORR fines etc - because it's not 'extreme weather' - this is just normal for the Pennines. I was wondering who to ring who had any safety mandate for immediate enforcement notice - ORR, RSSB, HSE etc...?

 

[43066]

but you can get shovels and salt out within a morning.

Who exactly is going to be getting shovels out, transporting them to where they’re needed, and spending hours clearing platforms? Everyone employed by a TOC will have a day job to do that doesn’t involve shovelling snow. Then quite a few of these locations are also completely unmanned.

 

[fishwomp]

Who exactly is going to be getting shovels out, and transporting them to where they’re needed, and spending hours clearing platforms? Everyone employed by a TOC will have a day job to do that doesn’t involve shovelling snow. Then quite a few of these locations are also completely unmanned.

Sorry, don't know his or her name, but if you ask the TOC, it's their responsibility. As others have said, it's subcontracted.

As for the conductor's on-off-dance at platforms - a bucket of salt in the back cabin, chucked out before you step out, would be a thing I'd probably suggest to my manager if that were my job. It'd keep that one spot safe for rest of day, continually refreshed by subsequent conductors. Would like to see any manager higher up fail to approve a health-and-safety expense.

 

[43066]

Sorry, don't know his or her name, but if you ask the TOC, it's their responsibility. As others have said, it's subcontracted.

I doubt anyone who works for the TOC will know their name either(!) I’ve certainly never come across subcontracted armies of people doing things like this (needing to clear scores of platforms in only a few hours) and where do they get 4X4s from, for an event that will only last a few days?

I imagine the approach to “risk assessment” in this case is simply telling people to be aware of icy conditions (I note there are quite a few warnings on the website relating to individual stations). Presumably that’s seen as being in accordance with ALARP, as clearing platforms isn’t going to be seen as practicable. The other choice would probably be to simply close the stations.

As for the conductor's on-off-dance at platforms - a bucket of salt in the back cabin, chucked out before you step out, would be a thing I'd probably suggest to my manager if that were my job. It'd keep that one spot safe for rest of day, continually refreshed by subsequent conductors. Would like to see any manager higher up fail to approve a health-and-safety expense.

Conductors will generally be wearing properly stout shoes with a decent tread. I can see how sporadically throwing grit, melting a layer of snow that will re freeze, could make the issue worse than simply standing on compacted snow.

 

[dosxuk]

You'd expect that to be a contractor's problem.. Or as the phrase goes.. "you had one job"...

Without seeing the contract, you don't know if they're meeting the requirements or not. Contracters will only do the job they are contracted to do, and "apply some grit where possible" and "completely clear all platforms and access routes of snow and ice" are completely different scales of job. The former would be sufficient for the vast majority of snow/ice events we have in most of the UK. The question is whether the TOCs (and passengers) are willing to pay for the latter, when the former is what is normally needed and will be significantly cheaper.

As for the conductor's on-off-dance at platforms - a bucket of salt in the back cabin, chucked out before you step out, would be a thing I'd probably suggest to my manager if that were my job. It'd keep that one spot safe for rest of day, continually refreshed by subsequent conductors. Would like to see any manager higher up fail to approve a health-and-safety expense.

Not in this weather it won't - it would end up with an even more slippery spot for the next conductor to stand in. The only way to make it safe is to completely clear it of snow, then apply the grit. So not only do your conductors need a bucket of salt, the need a shovel and broom, and enough time to move the snow to a location where it won't cause a hazard later on.

Round here, snow which has been walked on a bit is absolutely fine and plenty grippy with sensible footwear. It's where people have tried to apply a bit of grit and then moved on without actually fixing the problem that are the lethally slippery bits.

Now I'm not actually trying to defend the TOC's here, they absolutely should be making more of an effort to clear this - however this isn't simply a case of "if they applied some grit it would just melt and go away" - it should be looked into whether they have access to sufficient resources to do this amount of snow clearance, and if not, how much it would cost to get that access - especially in events like this where areas are still treacherous a week after the initial snow fall. It's one thing to expect clear and slip free platforms the day after a significant snowfall and freeze, and another entirely to expect them to be usable a week later - but then for the last few years, apply grit and wait for warmer weather to come through would have been the answer to that...

 

[Dr Hoo]

The sheer amount of snow and sharpness of the sub-zero temperatures in parts of The North has been amazing. In the wilds of the Hope Valley neighbours (and I) have been out with scoops and shovels and the entire contents of County Council plus parish council rock salt bins have been liberally distributed but the 1:5 hill was still covered in ice for a week. It took me 25 minutes with a hairdryer just to get my car door open and, having started the engine, a further 50 minutes to de-ice just the windows, mirrors and lights on Friday in readiness for a possible trip on Saturday. It then took only a further 40 minutes to de-ice it again on Saturday.

A few shovels of grit at a station would make no impression at all.

Meanwhile every pavement and bus stop has been an ice rink.

The only ‘solution’ for icy platforms at unstaffed stations and those with no overall roofs would have been suspension of services for the duration.

 

[fishwomp]

[..]
Round here, snow which has been walked on a bit is absolutely fine and plenty grippy with sensible footwear. It's where people have tried to apply a bit of grit and then moved on without actually fixing the problem that are the lethally slippery bits.

As you said earlier - not the case in W Yorks, the freeze/thaw cycle means the slippy bits are the bits that have been walked on: that is is solid ice. If you find crisp snow by sides of walls for example it's ok but most of that is walked on too..

 

[Bikeman78]

This was the platform edge at Swinton (S. Yorks) yesterday almost a week after the snow fell.
Swinton is used by around 1,000 passengers per day so is not exactly a lightly used station in the middle of nowhere.View attachment 172624

To me, that is a non event. I have cycled on worse. It is what it is. I rarely travel beyond walking/cycling distance from home in sub zero weather. I don't want to get stuck somewhere.

 

[JPRW]

Don't forget working within 1.25m of the platform edge classes as 'on or near the line' and would require PTS trained staff and a COSS, to set up a safe system of work (e.g. line block).
It's doubtful that the typical gritting team would include these competencies by defdefault

I grit 1 west mids station for a sub contractor. The RAMS just say wear orange hi viz and face oncoming trains. No requirement for PTS or to wear a blue helmet. I walk right on the platform edge to grit along it.

A passenger a few weeks ago said the platform was icy. It wasn't, he was slipping on the saline solution on the smooth platform edge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2025 ==

If going within 1.25m of the platform edge requires PTS then I’d love to know many passengers have PTS…

Seriously though, just to spread grit or shovel snow it’s excessive. It’s not as if they’re being asked to paint the yellow line.

I can confirm no PTS required

 

[td97]

I can confirm no PTS required

Agreed ... Rechecked my PTS handbook and it does state that the 1.25m rule only applies for "engineering or technical work". Of which gritting or snow clearance does not classify.

 

[800001]

If going within 1.25m of the platform edge requires PTS then I’d love to know many passengers have PTS…

Seriously though, just to spread grit or shovel snow it’s excessive. It’s not as if they’re being asked to paint the yellow line.

They don’t need PTS to grit/salt platforms, or even to clear snow from platforms.

 

[Deepgreen]

To me, that is a non event. I have cycled on worse. It is what it is. I rarely travel beyond walking/cycling distance from home in sub zero weather. I don't want to get stuck somewhere.

Me too - often...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

I grit 1 west mids station for a sub contractor. The RAMS just say wear orange hi viz and face oncoming trains. No requirement for PTS or to wear a blue helmet. I walk right on the platform edge to grit along it.

A passenger a few weeks ago said the platform was icy. It wasn't, he was slipping on the saline solution on the smooth platform edge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2025 ==


I can confirm no PTS required

Exactly! The solution (sorry!) can be worse than the problem - people can generally see ice and snow, they can't see a slippery saline solution. It's the same on the roads - at the first hint of temperatures dropping into the low single figures the gritters come out and fling salt/grit everywhere, even when the weather conditions (and roads) are dry and when ice can't form anyway. This sort of thing is clearly done to protect organisations against legal action from people who are too stupid to look after themselves (or have been made that way by the 'cotton-woolling' inflicted on them).

PTS or not, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the regulations prohibited staff from doing what passengers legitimately do all the time...

 

[43066]

This sort of thing is clearly done to protect organisations against legal action from people who are too stupid to look after themselves (or have been made that way by the 'cotton-woolling' inflicted on them).

Indeed, but that doesn’t alter the need for said protection, especially when the organisations in question are ultimately backed by the taxpayer.

 

[Deepgreen]

Indeed, but that doesn’t alter the need for said protection, especially when the organisations in question are ultimately backed by the taxpayer.

Agreed - to an extent. With road gritting, though, the damage caused by the gritting may well outweigh the benefits - corrosion, abrasion, etc., and have we really reached the point in society where councils must treat roads in dry and clear weather just in case a small patch of ice might possibly form somewhere and a driver who has become de-sensitised to the conditions has an accident? I imagine that councils' budget problems weill see an end to routine widespread gritting in anything but forecast and actual snowy conditions. However, I am probably causing thread drift...

 

[philthetube]

I noticed this at stations on my Leeds to Sheffield run on Monday and Tuesday. My first thought was "what are station adopters / Friends Of groups there for?" Then I thought... probably not allowed because of a safety ruling. If t'were me, I'd be better at gritting platforms, steps and approaches than planting flowers any day.

Station adopters are mainly pensioners who enjoy gardening and making a station look nice, they are generally not fit enough to be doing jobs like this, and it would not be reasonable to ask them.

Conductors will generally be wearing properly stout shoes with a decent tread. I can see how sporadically throwing grit, melting a layer of snow that will re freeze, could make the issue worse than simply standing on compacted snow.

and if the conductor falls and hurts themselves the train is cancelled and a train load of passengers are stuck in the middle of nowhere

To me, that is a non event. I have cycled on worse. It is what it is. I rarely travel beyond walking/cycling distance from home in sub zero weather. I don't want to get stuck somewhere.

I was stood on an icy rod with an approx. 20 degree slope and slid to the bottom, fortunately not far, good luck on your bike.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I’m sure that when I did my Station Adopter safety ‘course’/briefing (on line, with Northern) I had to ‘agree’ that I wouldn’t attempt anything like snow clearing. The grit bin is padlocked anyway.